Interview with Cloakndagger.gr - November 2009
1. Hello Tom! I always wanted to ask you about your name. How did you come up with such a band name? Most metal bands prefer a simple noun than a moving picture such as While Heaven Wept!
While Heaven Wept in the most basic sense is simply a poetic way of saying “when it rains” – but there is a much deeper back story to it: Long ago, I received a letter from my first deep love some months after we’d become estranged…though we tried to persevere, the fact is distance can very much be a murderer. Needless to say, the said letter arrived to me on the exact date of our anniversary, and the contents of which were like a blade through my heart and soul; the only words I can still remember now are: “I’ve just given up” and “I’m not the only one in this world.” Keep in mind, up to this point it was a beautiful autumn afternoon, but as the letter slipped from my fingers and I collapsed to the ground overcome with emotion, the sky, as if empathetic to my pain, turned black and poured down upon me, hence the lines from “Sorrow Of The Angels” – Heaven weeps with my sorrow, through the clouds’ veil of black lace…An infinity of angels share the tearstreams I poured away.” About a year passed before this moniker was officially insurrected in 1991 (after the band had been cycling through various names throughout the previous 2 years), but the really strange thing is how over the years, whenever we rehearsed, completed an album, or reached some kind of milestone, it has subsequently rained – the last days of mixing “Vast Oceans Lachrymose” were no exception, and whether all this is coincidence or something more mystical, it was reassuring nonetheless.
2. Considering the major lineup changes of your past, how stable is this one? Although I have a feeling that these new people aren’t complete strangers to you.
Most of the current line-up has been intact since 1998, just after the completion of the “Sorrow Of The Angels” album; Scott, Michelle, and Jim have been members ever since, though for whatever reason Michelle was only listed as a guest on “Of Empires Forlorn” – I think because at the time, we were quite literal regarding the accreditation of contributors to the album, but the fact is she not only played some keyboard parts on the album, she also was onstage with us for all domestic concerts in support of it. Additionally, both Jim and I have performed with them and Trevor in Brave (whom I co-founded, after we evolved from the Arise From Thorns project) in varying capacities since 1998 as well, so indeed, there are no strangers at the core of WHW. In fact, apart from Jim and Rain, the rest of us have known each other since high school, Scott and Michelle are siblings, and Trevor is now Michelle’s husband, so it very much is a family. Obviously there was at least one significant change in recent years though…
3. You also have a new singer, Hank Irving. How did you hook up with him? Is the nickname Rain his only distant connection to doom metal?
Yes, Rain is the significant change I spoke of indeed. Basically, in 2008, Rain contacted me through the WHW MySpace page, just to express his admiration for “Of Empires Forlorn,” and we exchanged a few mails before I realized that he was in fact the same Rain Irving that sang for the Magna Carta/Roadrunner prog metal band Altura…and once I noticed he was also living here in Virginia, the wheels started turning in my head; I’d been looking for a singer for the last 17 years or so, but wasn’t ever able to find someone who wasn’t psychotic, egocentric, nor within 100 miles of here. I’m quite pleased to say that Rain isn’t a diva nor a psychotic, and he fits perfectly within the chemistry of WHW. It probably sounds incredibly ironic that we have a singer named Rain after what I just told you about the origins of While Heaven Wept, and it is – but you’re right, aside from having been a fan of Solitude and WHW, basically he has no prior ties to that world. Incidentally, he’s had this nickname since he was a young child, due to his propensity for staying out in the rain.
4. I’ve seen he’s done some progressive metal projects prior to joining you where he was much more than simply the singer. Is he going to take on composing duties as well in the future?
Indeed, Rain is a gifted multi-instrumentalist and songwriter in his own right – after several failed attempts to find permanent members for his post-Altura projects Nailed and Every Waking Hour, he elected to play all the instruments himself in addition to all the vocals. Just in the past week we were discussing as a band how everyone involved is in fact a songwriter, which means there’s so much untapped potential within WHW, and I think after the next album (which is already composed in its entirety) we’ll see what happens when we pull all of our creative energies together. Either way, I intend to have Rain providing some additional instrumental layers in a live setting ultimately.
5. Is the choice of a power metal vocalist such as Hank an indication of a shift in musical style for While Heaven Wept? Were you not satisfied from your vocals on “Of Empires Forlorn”?
I don’t think that Rain’s vocal style represents a change in WHW musically at all; I might not have been as successful vocally in this same regard, but the aspiration to have our own John Arch, Geoff Tate, or Ray Alder was always there from the beginning. Maybe it’s hard for me to see a shift in musical style because not only have these songs existed for so long, but there’s also an extremely diverse range of music in the “WHW archives” from the last 20 years, that we only choose to release when it is appropriate (within the context of a specific album)…and that aside, there is seldom a new element within this music, rather merely a different ratio of existing influences. Regarding my vocals on the “Empires” album, actually it was the first release out of all those I’d been involved with (including other bands such as Twisted Tower Dire, etc.) where I was pleased with the results for the most part – I’ve still never been a fan of my own voice, especially considering my own vocal heroes are unparalleled (John Arch, Freddie Mercury, Steve Perry, Dio, etc.). Actually, the decision to step away from the microphone had nothing to do with the last album at all, rather it was predominantly based upon problems I faced in a live setting, which were multifold: first off, I always had real problems pitching myself accurately in a loud environment (which is obvious a serious issue), secondly, I always felt torn between the guitar and the vocals – wanting to give 110% onstage, but ending up feeling spread thin instead resulting in giving 50% at best to either, which was unacceptable to me, and finally, given we’ve elected to release some of the material that is much more demanding instrumentally, it would’ve taken years to master covering both bases – and we’d already been silent for too long as it is. Beyond this, when this band first started, not only was the material more diverse, I was just a guitarist/composer…the first two incarnations of the band featured a dedicated lead vocalist, and I only ever took over for the reasons mentioned earlier (as far as the difficulties in finding a suitable singer). Being that in some ways, with “Vast Oceans Lachrymose” we’ve come full circle back to the beginning of the band, when there were no boundaries musically (not that there have ever been, but genuine emotions lie behind each LP, and being that those are paramount, the material truly represents “where we were” in each instance), it also made sense to me to return to the original vision of the band. Just for the record, I know there are a lot of people out there who still prefer my vocals for WHW, and all I can say is I am flattered by such sentiments…I really appreciate those opinions, but I’m absolutely certain that bringing in Rain was the right decision.
6. “Vast Oceans Lachrymose” is an album that sounds a bit different than your previous one. Do you agree with that? Which are the main differences between now and then?
I agree with that assessment, but I feel like it is a very natural and logical progression from “Of Empires Forlorn” in the sense that there were a few songs on “Empires” that had pushed the boundaries of doom metal – not that I view that album as doom metal, but I can understand why many people do - and with that in mind, I’d say that it was about as far as anyone had ever pushed the musical envelope up to that point, but yet could still be considered a representative of the genre. At the same time, as I inferred earlier, “Vast Oceans Lachrymose” is also kind of a de-evolution in the respect that the “adventure” of our earliest material is far more present than on the last two albums. I’m sure for anyone outside of the band the differences seem to be much wider than they actually are, particularly during initial listens, but for the band, “VOL” is simply the revealing of facets of WHW that have always existed. Mind you, there was a great concern that we were about to alienate our entire audience because it wasn’t “Sorrow part II” or “Empires part II,” but we should’ve given them more credit number one, and number two, it was a risk we were willing to take regardless due to the fact that it is absolutely essential that we sincerely feel and have a passion for the music we’re performing. While this is always the highest priority, it is perhaps even more important when it comes to the realization of an album. Anyway, to summarize “Vast Oceans Lachrymose,” I’d say it features a better production, better performances, is both more progressive and aggressive than our previous albums, and much more “complete” in terms of the overall vision, but sounding very clearly like WHW still.
7. Would you say VOL is less doom metal than anything you’ve ever done? Do you feel WHW as a band of two faces?
Absolutely; “Vast Oceans Lachrymose” in my estimation isn’t a doom metal album at all, though that foundation is still there, and there are a few brief passages that could qualify as doom (but pass by rather quickly). I also didn’t consider “Of Empires Forlorn” a doom metal album either, rather a modern version of 70s symphonic prog/rock. The fact is, despite having been very intimately involved with the doom metal scene for more than 2 decades now (first as a fan, then as a contributing musician), and even having gone so far as to publically define doom metal, WHW hasn’t fallen within the scope of my own definition apart from a period in the mid-90’s – and that is only considering the material we actually released. To clarify, in my opinion, there is only one definition of doom metal, and this dates back to the time we began, when there were only 20 bands at most, worldwide…if a band sounds like Black Sabbath, Trouble, Witchfinder General or Pentagram, then that is most certainly doom metal…anything else, simply is not. Of course, the exception being the Candlemass style of epic doom, but even then there are strong ties to Sabbath and the other aforementioned bands. Basically anything else is absolutely not pure doom metal – that isn’t to say doom isn’t an influence or element within the sound of various slow death metal, stoner rock, or ambient bands, but these things are irrefutably hybrids, not doom metal in pure sense. With this in mind, WHW has too many elements and influences to satisfy my own definition of doom metal, no matter how closely related we are. I don’t think we have two faces at all, rather one with many different expressions…we owe allegiance to no specific genre, we’ll never play any form of music simply for the sake of doing so (it must always come from the heart and soul), and in the end, the only “label” that is truly accurate in describing the music that we write is “WHW music” – something of a more universal metal in which fans of many styles should find something they identify within.
8. You name early Fates Warning and Candlemass as your first two influences. I believe your album is that mixture exactly. Although most of these songs existed before 2003, the OEF album didn’t have that FW influence as strong. Is this album a statement that FW are back in the WHW cauldron? I suppose the vocal lines on “To wander the void” are some kind of tribute to John Arch?
Fates Warning have been and will always be an influence upon WHW; sometimes this may shine through more prominently than others, but it’s always been in there. Of course, it’s important to remember that we’re talking about FW through “No Exit” and maybe some hints of “Perfect Symmetry,” but generally it’s the John Arch era that rings through the most. You’re absolutely correct in sussing out that “To Wander The Void” is a tribute to the said Arch era…though it started out as something as deeply personal as all of our songs; it was always obvious (even back in 1995) that the riffing recalled “The Spectre Within,” but it wasn’t until the lyrics and vocal melodies were completed that it developed into the aforementioned tribute. Essentially, the approach was condensing the first 4 FW albums down into one song…with vocal lines that wouldn’t be out of place on “Brocken,” lyrical themes reminiscent of “Awaken The Guardian,” said riffing of “Spectre,” the heaviness of “No Exit” and even a dash of complex time signatures ala “Perfect Symmetry.” I hope if those guys ever hear that song they will learn that it is a heartfelt tribute and our way of saying “thank you” for the years of inspiration. I don’t hear a whole lot in the way of Candlemass on “Vast Oceans Lachrymose” though, apart from perhaps the outro section of “To Wander The Void” incidentally.
9. In my review I wrote that mixing Candlemass with FW was always your thing. I even made an example for it using Solitude Aeturnus. VOL breathes a lot like the 90s. Do you feel compelled to make music today as you and SA did back then?
Well, our influences certainly haven’t changed since the beginning – there may be a few new ones, but those generally have more to do with atmospheres, harmonic structure, or production as opposed to the basic foundations. I definitely make no apologies for playing metal the way it was meant to be played, before it was diluted by trends or other genres of music that became more popular in recent times. Still, I’m only ever compelled to play music from the heart and soul, rooted in real emotions, life-experiences and actual circumstances…nothing more, nothing less. This is what “keep it true” means to me – catering to any specific parameters other than those I’ve just mentioned would be a betrayal of myself, and I’d quit playing music altogether before I ever did that.
10. VOL is your most guitar oriented album you’ve ever done. There are plenty of heavy and sometimes complex riffs to be found in it. What’s the philosophy behind this? Tired of keyboards maybe?
Are you kidding? I am as obsessed as ever with massive washes of analog synths and orchestral patches haha! You’re talking to one of the proud owners of that 50 CD boxset of unreleased Klaus Schulze material mate! Don’t forget also that along with Fates Warning and Candlemass, the other biggest influence on WHW was (and is) Kitaro. Anyway, when it comes to arrangements and orchestration, the bottom line is that the music itself dictates everything…sometimes it is more effective to use keyboards in an accentual fashion, whereas others they are a key element, and really, there are examples of both on “Vast Oceans Lachrymose.” While we did let a lot of the riffs “breathe” or assert themselves on this album, I think the production also has some bearing upon how the keyboards come across.
11. You also name lots of other influences like Cirith Ungol, Pink Floyd and classical music which can be clearly heard in your album! How do you turn all these versatile influences into something so recognizable such as a WHW song?
The only possible explanation that I can give you is that everything that I hear exerts some influence upon me – if it’s something I adore, it’s inspiring…whereas if it’s something I despise, I’ll do all I can to navigate in the opposite direction. I’ll also say that because I have such a huge library of 8000+ CD’s, and have some semblance of a photographic memory for music, that it’s “just all in there.” Really, I cannot take credit for anything beyond the arrangements and orchestrations, and for being the filter through which that which is revealed to me translates, via my life experiences, emotional state, etc. I’m less of a songwriter and more of a “medium” – the music and lyrics come when they do, through revelation alone, I simply let them flow whenever they choose to manifest themselves. I never sit down to forcibly write anything as far as the foundations are concerned…I just open my heart and free my soul…it’s only later that I approach the revelations with the intention of arranging/orchestrating. If you or anyone else ever figures out where all this comes from, let me know, because I’d like to know myself!
12. The opening track “The Furthest Shore” is a 15 minute epic. Pretty bold move eh? One would expect the song to have more calm parts but this album is heavy metal from start to finish! Was that also a statement about the new WHW?
All this is simply what the music itself dictated…there’s a specific, natural flow to each one of our albums, and we merely acknowledge and adhere to that. In the case of “The Furthest Shore,” it (like all of the songs) was a child that continued to grow and develop, eventually asserting itself above some others, demanding attention! The reality is we had rehearsed several other songs that were originally going to be part of the “VOL” album, but as “Shore” grew to mammoth proportions, it was clear this music was speaking to us, it needed to have it’s own space, as the centerpiece of the album. There were quite a few “calmer” parts that ended up set aside due to this that will resurface on the next album. Needless to say, this is a prime example of the music dictating everything.
13. The album closes with two great instrumentals in the vein of OEF. Why did you choose to close the album with the less heavy metal songs? Are you going to revisit the OEF style in the future as well?
Two things were very clear from the moment the music of “Vast Oceans Lachrymose” was revealed: it was obviously an instrumental, and it was meant to close the album; if you were to view the album from a cinematic point-of-view - and it very much is a journey – then, the song “Vast Oceans Lachrymose” would be the “ending credits.” You’re very right about this one being similar to some of the “Empires” material – it was revealed immediately after “The Drowning Years” in fact, so it’s a natural progression in that vein I think, and it has that same aural paradoxical quality as that song as well. The full title of the closing instrumental is actually “Vast Oceans Lachrymose Epilogue” as it evolved from the mother song some years later, as if “VOL” itself wasn’t really complete…and it’s more melancholic atmosphere does indeed set the tone for the “Fear Of Infinity” – which is an altogether darker affair. Perhaps in some respects “Fear Of Infinity” does recall “Empires,” but primarily in relation to the title track of that album – overall, it’s far more diverse than even “VOL.”
14. The sound of the album is extremely heavy. The guitar tone is simply amazing. Can you tell us a little bit about the production and the sound in general?
Typically, long before we even reach the recording phase, I can already hear the songs in my head, and though it’s often a struggle, the primary mission is to accurately realize them on tape. Beyond this, WHW has always strived to “raise the bar” with each album in terms of production and performance, and this largely has to do with the aforementioned successful realization. Regarding the guitar tones, what I can tell you is that for some time now we’ve been experimenting with “composite tones” which involves sending one signal through two or more amps simultaneously, the resultant combination being something quite different from that which is heard coming from any single amplifier. While we started this album with the same gear as “Empires,” by the time we finished it, all that was sold off and we were utilizing 100% custom equipment we designed and had built specifically for the music of WHW. In general, the production is very much the antithesis of this modern, Pro-Tooled sound that has inexplicably become the norm – we insisted upon everything sounding organic, natural, and largely unaltered…at least as much as possible considering it wasn’t a 100% analog setup (rather more like 75% analog). The final production master was the result of 500+ hours of studio time, over 50 rough mixes, 2 final mixes, and 2 masters. We surely could’ve spent another six months on the record to REALLY nail it, but we were already a month late in delivering the master to Cruz Del Sur! Hopefully, people will appreciate it despite the fact it could be better…I mean, we’re for the most part pleased, but there was a lot of pressure to get it done, and a bit more time would’ve been ideal. I know it sounds pretty much different from anything else released this year or in several years, so I really don’t know how it’s going to be received overall, though initial reactions are positive generally.
15. How do you feel about the duration of the album? Isn’t it a bit brief? Was it done this way to be released in vinyl?
My feelings are that “Vast Oceans Lachrymose” is a complete statement and makes for an exciting journey. Just because modern media can accommodate longer recordings, that doesn’t mean bands should fill CD’s to capacity, just for the sake of it. How many times has an initially killer album ultimately outstayed its welcome and dragged on and on? I do absolutely still think of albums in terms of LP’s first and foremost, so the goal almost always is to insure the highest fidelity possible in that format…and the fact is, we always push it right to the edge of potential degradation. I know people seem to always want more, but first of all, we’re 100% self-financed and it cost an inordinate amount of money to realize even just these 6 songs, secondly, as a music teacher, I know the average attention span lasts approximately 45 minutes, and lastly, it’s always better to be left wanting more, than having the feeling of “god, when the hell is this album going to end?” When people complain, I always cite “Reign In Blood” and various early Rush albums as examples of “all killer, no filler” releases, that are all far shorter than any WHW album! If “VOL” is too short for anyone, my suggestion is…to listen to it from the beginning again!
16. The cover and artwork are brilliant! Please tell us about the artist behind it and what does it show. Do you wish to pass some specific message with it? Is purple the official WHW color?
The cover art’s caption is “Christ Stilleth The Tempest” and was painted by UK artist John Martin (1789-1854). We have of course manipulated the image in a few ways so as to fit the entire painting into the confines of a square and also to convey the drama of the music itself. The instant I ran across this painting in a BBC article, I instantly thought “that’s it…Vast Oceans Lachrymose” – a discovery not unlike the way the music itself is revealed. I am responsible for the internal photography, and each image directly correlates to the song whose lyrics are printed above it. This in effect, makes “VOL” even more personal than past albums in many ways, but only a few will ever know the true reasons for each image…as I rather leave as much open to interpretation as possible. Purple and black, colors of death have been synonymous with WHW since the very beginning, and being that purple also is symbolic of regality, given the epic nature of the music, I think it’s very appropriate.
17. I think the lyrics connect the concept of love with the life at sea. Am I right? Can you tell us some things about the lyrics in general and especially the song “Vessel”? The refrain and lyrics on this song are simply wonderful!
The lyrics, as always are further entries in my own aural diary…it’s the story of my life – specific events, relationships, moments, emotions…triumphs and tragedies, heaven and hell. That said, at least since the “Empires” era, there have been many dualities within the words – meaning there are literal interpretations as well as those implied through metaphors…sometimes there are even more translations than that as well. While there is a connection between love and the sea within the lyrics, there’s really a lot more to it than that, however I don’t want to alter your perceptions or anyone else’s. I think it’s important that the songs have their own meaning for each individual. Regarding “Vessel,” it is indeed a very special song…perhaps the deepest emotionally on the album, at least for me, as it was a genuine invitation of sorts…but again, it’s more complex than that. Just to give you a bit more direction and insight without “giving it all away” try listening to the “VOL” album as if you were watching a Tarantino film – the way it is arranged in terms of the tracklist results in flashbacks and foreshadowing…but if you were to re-arrange the songs into a slightly different order, a very clear story is told. The end lies within the beginning…
18. How did you hook up with Cruz Del Sur Music? Are you satisfied with their work?
I’d been communicating regularly with Enrico since the limited-edition release of “Empires” on Eibon Records, and he’d expressed interest in releasing that album in an unlimited capacity; however we’d already signed with Rage Of Achilles at the time. Needless to say, over the years we developed both a friendship and working relationship, so once Black Lotus Records, like Rage Of Achilles ceased to exist, Cruz Del Sur Music was the obvious choice. Additionally, many of our close friends were already affiliated with the label such as Slough Feg and Widow for example. I kept pushing Enrico to sign Battleroar too incidentally! Anyway, I couldn’t be happier with the results of our collaboration…I know Enrico believes in his bands, and does everything he can to benefit them. I really hope “VOL” is successful for the sake of CDSM, as I’d like to see the label thriving for many years to come!
19. I know the feedback on the album is great so far! Did you expect this?
Actually, as I said before, we were quite sure that we were pushing it “too far” and very well could alienate our audience, but it was a risk we were willing to take without hesitation, simply because we had to do this album exactly the way it is…from the heart and soul, played with genuine inspiration and passion. So, really, we didn’t know what to expect…but we’re completely blown away by the extremely generous, overtly positive response to the album…it’s truly amazing to receive such accolades, and quite humbling too…I mean, to be spoken of in the same breath as Slayer, Katatonia, WASP, Immortal, Kiss…all these HUGE bands that released albums at the same time…it’s surreal and surprising…especially for a band that paid for their recording out of their own pockets. I just hope the true meaning of “VOL” doesn’t get obscured or anything…but…we are so flattered and appreciative of so many kind words…it’s an honor, truly.
20. I see you are already preparing for the release of your 4th album entitled “Fear of Infinity”. Is it going to have more old songs or are you composing new material for this album? Is it going to have songs that didn’t fit in VOL?
“Fear Of Infinity” consists of the 8 songs that were removed from “VOL” to allow “The Furthest Shore” space to “breathe” plus the single that we’d announced earlier in 2009 – which is unquestionably the greatest epic WHW song of all…the song to end all songs for this band…the culmination of 20 years in one composition, with the deepest emotions I’ve ever tapped into. The songs of the “FOI” album were composed between the years 1995-2008, so again, it’s a wide range of material, and as mentioned above is even more diverse than “VOL” – more aggressive, less progressive on a song-by-song basis, but as entity is quite progressive for WHW. I’d characterize this album as 50% more aggressive than anything we’ve ever done and 50% recalling the “Sorrow Of The Angels” era – and a couple songs were actually originally recorded for that album, but never released. Needless to say, “FOI” is a very dark, ominous album…but more epic than anything we’ve ever done. I’m quite sure it will be as controversial as “VOL,” but it is the material we feel strongest about as a band…that we genuinely love playing perhaps more than all the rest – certainly if we were asked to choose between albums. What “FOI” really does is complete this current “cycle” of WHW…allowing us to create truly exciting setlists for concerts, full of twists and turns and adventure, as well as clear the slate for a true collaboration after between all the songwriters in the band. Hopefully we’ll manage to pay off this enormous debt to the recording studio left in the wake of “VOL” sooner than later so that we can start recording as soon as possible! This is definitely a scenario where CD, LP, and merch sales will determine everything!
21. I know I’m seeing you guys at Hammer Of Doom III next year. How about other live appearances? Knowing your strong bonds with Greece, will we ever get the chance of seeing you live on Greek soil?
As of the time of this interview, there are no other shows scheduled in the EU for 2010, but this is largely due to the fact that we have signed an exclusivity clause for Hammer Of Doom III, which we co-headline with Vitus. Of course, we definitely will arrange further shows over there after the festival, but when and where have yet to be determined. A variety of offers have been presented, and we’re looking very closely at all of them, but you can be damn sure that I have every intention of bringing WHW to Greece as soon as possible! So many brothers and sisters there…Greece remains very close to my heart, and I miss being there…it’s all a matter of the right circumstances presenting themselves; the biggest issue for WHW right now is that we simply cannot afford to travel anywhere without all the expenses being covered…again, due to the massive studio debt…so we’re relying entirely upon promoters at this point in time. Fingers remain crossed!
22. The last words belong to you Tom! Thank you so much!
Thank YOU so much my friend…I really appreciate this chance to talk about “VOL” and WHW in general…thank you for this opportunity! Also, thank you so much to all of my extended family there…the Greek Metal Armada…my brothers and sisters…thank you for all of your support and patience over the years…I really hope to see you very soon! I hope you all feel that “VOL” was worth the wait! Heavy Metal Re Mounia!