Interview for Concrete Web, December 2003
1. Tom, In how far did the music of the other bands you played with (Twisted Tower Dire & Solstice) influence the music of WHW?
Actually, neither band exerted any influence upon the music of While Heaven Wept even though I was involved with both (primarily between 1995-1997, although I've recently rejoined Solstice once again). In fact, WHW formed in 1989, about a year before Solstice came together, and a full five years before TTD. There are quite a few similarities between Solstice and WHW, which can be attributed to having some of the same influences (Candlemass, Trouble, Sabbath, Celtic Frost) and for the last decade or so we've both helped to further define the genre that is Epic Doom Metal, providing two different takes on the sound Candlemass first introduced (and few have emulated since). As for TTD, I wouldn't go so far as to say that WHW exerted an influence upon them, but when we first formed Twisted Tower Dire, there was a much stronger doom element in the earliest material, especially when compared to the True NWOBHM-influenced sound of TTD today. TTD and WHW also share some of the same influences (Fates Warning, Mercyful Fate, etc.), so there have been and will always be parallels between us, even if we sound almost worlds apart. Really there are parallels between all three bands, the most obvious of which is the epic feeling that permeates much of the music in question.
2. With vocalist/ guitarist Tom Phillips being the driving force and mastermind behind this band, I'm wondering in how far the other members in the band are involved in the writing or development of the songs?
I've been the primary composer pretty much since the beginning and everything that has been released so far (apart from cover songs obviously) has been solely my material, with the exception of a few couple musical passages in "The Mourning" and "Shores Of Desolation" - our two earliest compostions that feature contributions from co-founding members Chris Galvan and Jim Chappell respectively. That is not to say that over the years the various members haven't contributed to the development of the final arrangements, as they surely have and do, and in some cases leave indelible signatures upon the songs, particularly in the case of long-time drummer Jon Paquin (1993-2001). In the past we tended to stick close to the intial arrangements I developed for the most part, but some of the guys managed to express themselves effectively even within those confines, like Danny Ingerson for example (bassist on the "Sorrow Of The Angels" album, currently with Dysrhythmia). These days, things are a lot more democratic and we try out virtually every suggestion that anyone brings up, but of course some are successful and some are not...at least we make the effort to do so. Jim in particular contributed greatly to the overall development of the entire "Empires" album; not only did he and I spend hours on end discussing every detail, every step of the way, but he came up with some great arrangement ideas on the spot in the studio. That's my right hand man! Everyone is encouraged to write within the band, and after all this time these guys are the ones finally stepping up to the plate with ideas, so who knows what we'll come up with for the next album. Given that Scott and I have a rich collaborative writing history with Brave (whom I was with for a couple years), it's likely that will continue in the future. The main reason they haven't contributed as much before is because they all have their own projects to consider too.
3. The album production was done by Tom & Jim, but also involved Kevin '131' Gutierrez (who also did some sampling, editing, and effects). How did this co-producing work out?
Basically for the time we were in the studio, Kevin became a member of the band; he went way beyond the role of engineer by helping us not only create killer tones, but also he took on a producer's role and brought out the best performances from all of us. The bottom line is Kevin rules. He knows his equipment intimately, and helped us to shape the sound of the album beyond even what we had envisioned to begin with! When we were working with him, we gave him an equal voice as far as the whole project was concerned. More often than not we went with his suggestions for arrangements and soundscaping. He definitely had some personal preferences that didn't fit in schematically with what we were attempting to do with this album, but we certainly took even those ideas we didn't implement into consideration. Kevin was integral to the accurate realization of this album, and we're looking forward to working with him again soon.
4. In how far were the guest musicians (keyboard players Michelle Loose & Jake Bodnar) able to bring in something of their own, and why use them in the first place, as Tom is also a keyboard player?
Michelle and Jake really are proper keyboard players, and the idea was that they could do the tracking more efficiently than I could, even though I wrote most of the parts. They did bring some things to the table however - Michelle and I developed a new keyboard progression for the midsection of "In Aeternum," so it seemed logical to have her play that part in the studio. She is also our live keyboard player, and techinically our 5 th member, since 1998. Jake on the other hand brought a particular knowledge of soundcrafting and analog modelling keyboards with him, and that helped us to develop both the orchestral pads as well as some of the spatial effects.
5. Why is keyboard player Jake Bodnar only mentioned as a guest musician on this album, and no longer as part of the band (like he was on last year's "The Drowning Sorrow" -7" -released on Maniacal Records)?
When we started recording the "Empires" album, Jake was a full-fleged member of the band, (as Michelle was busy with Brave among other things at the time), however it became clear that he was not going to work out because of his lifestyle, personality, and practice ethics (or lack thereof), and he ended up quitting right after we decided we were going to fire him! So it worked out well like that (laughing). I played all of the remaining keyboard tracks myself once we resumed recording again, and by the time the album was completed, Jake was long out of the band, so his role was reduced to that of a "guest." We run into him now and then still, and the latest news is he's engaged to be married, as well as pursuing some other musical endeavors that are not really worth mentioning (laughing)! Let's put it this way, they are not metal nor anything respectable like jazz or classical, so I'll leave it to your imagination (continues laughing)!
6. With no backing vocal credits mentioned, I suppose Tom also did those? Now how are you gonna perform that on stage?
Yes, I did perform all the vocal layers on this album, as well as one all past releases. For the most part, in a live setting I shift back and forth between the various harmonies in a solo vocal setting, but we're currently planning to take advantage of the great voices Michelle and Jim possess. Even Scott wants to get involved with the harmony vocals. This is going to be quite a painstaking process, because its something that none of us have ever done in any of our bands, but I'm pretty confident that we'll be able to recreate the layering on the album without any problem. Perhaps we'll even further develop some ideas since there would be up to four voices available.
7. Have there been, on this album, songs that took more effort from Tom & Jim to write, or for the band to learn how to play (or record in the studio)?
As far as writing is concerned, it really isn't much of an effort per se, because I write strictly through revelation rather than force. I never sit down to specifically write a song. There has to be some emotional catalyst and the progressions or melodies develop naturally. Some songs do take years to develop for this very reason, but I just "know" when they're right and complete. That's the point where I exert effort to flesh out the arrangements, and also when Jim will really start throwing in some ideas. Generally as far as the band learning the songs, that's a meticulous, yet fairly painless process, because I write out the music in full orchestral score, and then even Jason will score the drum parts. The most difficult song we've ever had to learn or play appeared on our previous album, "Sorrow Of The Angels." It is the 17+ minute song "Thus With A Kiss I Die," with a bridge section that changes time signatures 35 times within three minutes! Heavy stuff man! Of course there are always challenges, be it a matter of mastering a particular syncopation, or simply having the stamina and agility to play a particular composition, but there has never been a weak musician in WHW ever. Just listen to records by Twisted Tower Dire, Brave, Dysrhythmia, Grand Belial's Key, etc. for proof of that, if ours alone aren't enough.
8. Does the band have any favorite songs on the album (or among previous material)?
I was just debating over this very issue just the other day. When we walked out of the studio initially, as a whole, we decided that "Soulsadness" not only demonstrates almost every facet of WHW compositionally, but also that we managed to capture some truly impassioned performances on the recording, and the production is near perfect in our opinion. Months later, after not having listened to the album for a while, then coming back to it, I would say that "Soulsadness," along with one other older song, is the epitome of what WHW is all about, and our finest moments. That other song would be none other than the previously mentioned "Thus With A Kiss I Die," which is considered by many to be our first "masterwork." Honorable mentions go to "Of Empires Forlorn," "The Drowning Years," and "Voice In The Wind," on the basis of composition, soul, production, and performance.
9. In 2002 Metal Supremacy released a double 12", compiling all songs WHW had released before (off '94's "Into The Wells Of Sorrow"-7", '95's 3-track "Love Songs Of The Forsaken"-CD, '97's song "The Mourning" off the split-7" with Cold Mourning, and '98's 4-track MCD "Sorrow Of The Angels"), and including an unreleased track with "Unplenitude". Where did that song come from?
Hey, first off, I'd like to point out that (if it wasn't obvious from my previous responses) "Sorrow Of The Angels" was in fact a full-length LP even though there were only 4 songs on it! Incidentally the song "Unplenitude" dates back to the sessions for that album, which was recorded between 1997 and 1998 (not counting 2 previous attempts in 94 and 96). We actually recorded at least 4 other songs during those sessions, but ultimately decided not to include them on that album because they did not fit in schematically with the rest of the material, and at the time, it was very important to me that we released an album that was 100% pure, epic fucking doom METAL, which is exactly what we did! "Unplenitude" was written in the UK during my first tenure with Solstice in about five minutes time, under the influence of Beyond Dawn and This Empty Flow. When we recorded it, it ended up sounding like a cross between the Police, U2, and The Cure (!!!), which seemed really out of place next to the rest of the material, so it got shelved along with a few other cuts, even though it is a pretty catchy tune. When the idea came up to do "Chapter One:1989-1999" (after a few long talks with Sir Richard Walker of Solstice), I thought it would be cool to include something that was exclusive to that anthology, that was related to the timeframe and scope of the whole project, therefore "Unplenitude" was finally released, although in a pretty rough form. As the title implied, "Chapter One" signified the ending of one era, and we included all of the released material from the first decade (there were certainly numerous other songs written and recorded over the years, but still remain unreleased in various stages of completion to this day). Nevertheless, it's likely that a new version of "Unplenitude" will appear (with a vastly different arrangement) on the forthcoming re-release of the "Sorrow Of The Angels" album, along with a couple other songs from that era. "Sorrow Of The Angels" has been out-of-print for about 3 years now.
10. Why did you decide to call this new album after the song of the same title? [Does it have a specific meaning for this album and cover artwork (also check question 10)?]
Although "Empires" isn't really a concept album proper, it is thematic, and all the songs that it is comprised of quite literally refer to my personal empires of ruin. This is in reference to various events, relationships, circumstances, and realities that have occurred over the last 13 years (whereas our previous releases all revolved around a particular relationship's demise, just prior to the events of which I am speaking now). "Of Empires Forlorn," as a song is one of several that possess multiple meanings, and refer to several different individuals throughout the course of the lyrics, so given this myriad of subjects, it was an obvious choice for the album title. The cover art is very accurate depiction of the carnage and desolation described in the lyrics of the song, and it helps to establish the right atmosphere for the entire journey.
11. Tell us something about the history of the songs on this album?
"The Drowning Years", and "Soulsadness" were both composed in 2001, and are very much interrelated lyrically, but have more meanings than the most obvious ones, which are clearly references to addiction. "Of Empires Forlorn" was a song I started writing with Solstice in mind back in 1997, while I was still a member; the progressions that came out just seemed like they had the feel that Solstice was striving for at the time. Needless to say, after we parted ways, the song remained with me, incomplete until it was finished in 2001. "Voice In The Wind" was a song originally recorded by the German band Jane back in 1977 on their album "Between Heaven And Hell." Our version is definitely more of an adaptation rather than a strict cover, as I composed new lyrics and vocal melodies, altered the drum and keyboard progressions, added a bassline, and wrote the harmonized guitar solos, but I still think we managed to preserve the spirit and the starkness of the original, whilst making it a proper WHW song. "Epistle No.81" is a traditional Swedish hymn that was composed by Carl Michael Bellman, and has in the past been interpreted by numerous artists, including Candlemass and Februari 93. Both "Sorrow Of The Angels" and "In Aeternum" originally appeared on the 1994 demo/1995 MCD "Lovesongs Of The Forsaken," which has been totally out-of-print for many years. I was never satisfied with the orignal recordings, and always intended to redo those songs for that reason primarily, but also because I didn't want them to disappear into obscurity. This time around I feel like we truly realized what I had always intended for those songs.
12. Tell us something more about the cover artwork?
Once again, we elected to use the artwork of Gustave Dore because of his beautiful and powerful images of mythological (and biblical) devastation. His work adorns almost all of our previous releases as well. The imagery is very much related to that of the lyrics, and like I said, this cover really does set the up the proper atmosphere for the whole album. I think this is a pretty rare example of his painting, as Dore was most well known for his elaborate woodcuts.
13. The album was previously released on the Italian Eibon Records (who already did your 1998 "Sorrow Of The Angels"-MCD) on a 1000 copy rotation. How well did it sell? There's mention of extra tracks on the Rage Of Achilles release?
Of Empires Forlorn was released on Valentine's Day 2003 in a limited edition, luxury digipak through Eibon. At this point in time, that particular version is quite nearly sold out, but I think its still available for the moment should anyone prefer that format. At any rate, Duncan from Rage Of Achilles contacted me just prior to the release of the Eibon pressing, and expressed interest in licensing the album from us for the Western European and North American markets. After several months of debate and negotiation, we came to an agreement with ROA for the release of "Empires" in an unlimted capacity, for the said regions, for this particular release. The ROA version was released in the UK and US on October 27, 2003, in the standard jewel case format, but is NOT merely a re-release of the Eibon pressing. Really, the Eibon version is an entity of its own, with some exclusive material (the instrumental "From Empires To Oceans"), and likewise the ROA release is a completely re-mixed (or further mixed more accurately), re-mastered entity, with it's own exclusive bonus track, "In Aeternum." It's quite interesting to note how much of a difference one track actually makes in terms of the overall flow and feel of the album; the Eibon version is much more cinematic and atmospheric, while the ROA release comes across very much like a progressive metal album (with a heavy doom foundation) ala early Fates Warning or something. Needless to say, it is unclear as to who will release our next album, but we are certainly willing to entertain any and all serious offers!
14. Three out of four of this band's members are also active in other bands. How do you guys combine this band with the other one(s), and which band gets higher priority?
It requires quite a bit of communication and foresight to manage our time devoted to each of the bands. All of the bands (Twisted Tower Dire, Brave, Solstice, October 31, Revelation) are actively writing, recording, and performing in some capacity, and all are enjoying some degree of success at the moment. Essentially the way it all works is every band has a specific practice regimen on specific days every week, and they all assume highest priority on kind of rotating schedule. We set up tours and studio sessions far in advance, keeping the other bands up "in the loop" at all times, and on the rare occasions where there is a scheduling conflict, we try to have a pool of back-up musicians who can step in at any time to cover someone's parts (primarily in a live setting). Some of the bands like Revelation and Solstice are not actually very busy most of the time, as the members are spread out over thousands of miles, so trading ideas through the computer and mail accounts for most of the time spent on those projects at the moment. And certainly, it would be more functional to have a strictly devoted line-up for any of these bands, but we choose to work with the musicians that we do for very specific reasons. Ultimately, every success for any one of the bands is a success for all.
15. WHW will be on tour in Europe in early 2004. What can we expect, and will you also pass through Belgium?
Expect the unexpected (laughing)! Yes, finally in our (then) 15 th year of existence, we're finally "coming home" to where we belong...Europe. In April of 2004, we'll be over there headlining a series of shows that will include a couple festival appearances. One of these festivals is indeed Belgian Doom Night, which we will headline on April 10 th , and I believe it will take place in Gent (the other festival is the massive Doom Shall Rise II in Goppingen, Germany). We'll be performing songs from all of the CD's, including the forthcoming album, but the majority of the set will revolve around the "Empires" material. Unfortunately, we will not have an elaborate stage setting (which is actually in development), nor our actual equipment, and actually we'll even have some guest members as neither Scott nor Michelle can make this particular tour; we'll have longtime friend and brother Angelo Tringali of Cold Mourning on guitar, and it appears that Frederic from Whispering Gallery will now be joining us on keyboards, so it should be pretty exciting! Regardless of some of the drawbacks, you can expect nothing less than powerful, energetic, and impassioned performances that will make heads bang and hearts burst! We're planning to return to Europe for select dates in Greece in the autumn, following a couple North American festival appearances. By the way, supporting us on our tour will be none other than Mourning Beloveth, and Pantheist.
16. With the controvery about Internet in the last couple of years (random 'free' downloading versus its real utility for bands), how do you feel personally about the medium?
Let me put it this way: just about everyone in WHW downloads music from the Internet in some capacity. Primarily this is because there are so many new bands coming out these days, you really do have to sift through everything or you'll either miss out on something storming and inventive, or waste your money on some lame, derivative shit. I think if everyone approached downloading like we do, there would be no problems at all; we actually do buy what we like...fuck, we're CD and vinyl collectors! And we DO support our brothers and sisters! So having said all of this, I definitely don't have a problem with people downloading music...in fact I encourage it. How else are people supposed to unearth an alternative to the crap they forcefed by large corporate entities? You know, we're such advocates of downloading, that before even the Eibon pressing of "Empires" was released, we made the ENTIRE new album available for download from our website (albeit at slightly less than CD quality sound)! I don't play and record the music I do for money...sure we need it to survive in this world, but my music is born from necessity, and should be shared! That's what its all about! I say to all underground bands out there, use the Internet as a promotional tool, because it is the most powerful thing that has ever come along for and independent artist!
17. Any last comments, messages to convey to the readers of Concrete Web?
First of all, thank you for the interview Tony - I'm grateful for the opportunity to express myself, to dicuss some WHW history, and of course the latest album "Of Empires Forlorn." To all of our Belgian friends and fans...pre-existing and future...we hope to see you on April 10 th 2004 in Gent for a diverse evening of doom, metal, beer (hail Duvel!), and general debauchery (laughing)! For more information on While Heaven Wept, please peruse our website www.whileheavenwept.net . Labels, distros, and anyone else can email us directly from there as well. Remember "Of Empires Forlorn" is now available from www.rageofachilles.com , www.eibonrecords.com , and coming soon to a store near you! Doom onward...prog out...