Interview with Imperiumi.net - November 2009
Hello! It’s Antti Korpinen from the Finnish Imperiumi.net here. Hope you find the questions interesting, and congratulations for a great new album!
Greetings Antti...thank you for the opportunity to talk about the new album and WHW in general, it is very much appreciated! You certainly have come up with some interesting and thought-provoking questions, which is also appreciated after a stream of the standard affair!
When While Heaven Wept was founded under the name Dream Wytch in 1989, I was five years old. So it’s obviously an honour to interview someone like yourself who’s been in the ”business” for such a long time and, most importantly, someone who hasn’t wimped out or “matured”, as some people put it... Anyway, you’ve stated earlier that the driving forces behind WHW are catharsis, expression, and musicality. Is this still the case? Has the order of importance between these three ever changed, I mean, do you think there are certain releases that have driven more by, say, musicality, and then some other release maybe by something else? Where does Vast Oceans Lachrymose stand in this?
Indeed, the driving forces behind WHW remain the same after all these years, and I don’t think it is possible for me to approach music any other way; it simply HAS to come from the heart and soul, must be genuinely felt, and the realization of it must be clear in its delivery. Ultimately, the said forces are very much inter-related in that the catharsis comes through expression, and the expression must be accurate as well as musical. In the very beginning (around the time of Dream Wytch), the motivations behind the band were in fact strictly musical, however by the time the moniker of While Heaven Wept was insurrected in 1991, vivid emotional expression had taken precedence and this has remained as such since. That being said, given that some of the material contained within ”Vast Oceans Lachrymose” is very old, in some ways this album represents something of a return to the original vision of the band, with a stronger emphasis on musical gratification, but pure emotion remains paramount.
Looking at the cover of the new album, I can’t help thinking of music as something that “stilleth the Tempest”... How much of a therapist is music/WHW for you?
Typically, I’d say the music tends to invoke a tempest actually, and when it has passed – either at the conclusion of a concert or the end of a journey through one of the albums, I am quite spent of all energies, thus a calm is restored. For me, when I know that I’ve given this music all I’ve had, played the very best I possibly can, it is a therapy or catharsis like no other. However, more often than not in the past, especially with regards to concerts, I’ve been hypercritical of my performances – something I hope some of the changes we’ve made will allow me more opportunities to revel in the release of it all.
About the actual cover art then... There has been religious (and Christian, in particular) imagery in most While Heaven Wept covers. Besides being the “old trustful” when it comes to the imagery used in (doom) metal covers, what does religious imagery and symbology mean to you personally? Is While Heaven Wept in any sense a religious/spiritual enterprise?
The use of religious imagery on the album covers, within the lyrics, and even the band name is implemented strictly as metaphor; religious devotion is such a powerful thing for so many people and in some cases the strongest conviction of all...given this is the case, when I am trying to express specific magnitudes of emotion, such imagery is often the only thing that I can think of to have it translate for a lot of people (of course, nature would be the other equally powerful metaphor, in that it also is the ”grand leveller” for humanity – reminding us how small we really are, that we at best can alter our paths when it rages, but will never tame her). As for whether or not WHW is religious, the answer is ”no” with regards to the entity – though individual members have their own paths of thought and faith...for me music IS my religion. There is a deeply spiritual aspect of WHW, though it has little to do with deities or demigods.
The composition process for four of the six songs on the new album has begun in the 90s. For example, could specify which parts of Vessel and To Wander the Void are from 1993 and 1995 respectively? What is the biggest difference you see in yourself as a composer/musician in 1993/1995 vs. in 2009? How does this – and the lengthy writing process in general – come through in the songs, in your opinion?
Both ”Vessel” and ”To Wander The Void” were musically complete in the early 90’s – although there were a few adjustments/additional transitions that developed around 2000-2001...really the biggest difference between either from their original forms is the actual songtitles...the vocal melodies weren’t 100% complete either as the lyrics were only revealed in their entirety within the last 24 months, but you’d be surprised at how similar they are. As for a lengthy songwriting process, that is actually only applicable to certain songs really; if only portions of a song are revealed to me at a specific time, I’ll set it aside until some catalyst or random revelation completes it. More often than not, the songs themselves ”speak” to me, and if something doesn’t fit within the framework of a particular album or state of mind, it will be placed ”upon a shelf” for future use, if and when appropriate. The compositions that do take years to fully mature, do so in a natural way – they grow and develop just like any child would. Regarding how I’ve changed as a composer over the last 16 years in question is primarily a matter of knowledge, education, and experience; the earliest compositions are what I consider to be ”developmental” – all the basic WHW framework was there, but the songs were more primal, the expressions deep but in some ways immature, the influences more obvious, and the arrangements less-involved. You’ve got to remember that everything released prior to 1999 was composed between the ages of 15 and 18...thus in succeeding years, I’ve been able to apply all the theories and concepts that I learned at music university. What this ultimately means is that I’ve been able to develop far more creative arrangements, implement counterpoint more frequently, and expand harmonically. I think my greatest skill and asset is this knack for creating smooth bridges to transition between vastly disparate sections.
The obvious question would of course be what took so long with (some of) these songs, but I know you’ve already answered that question many times. So instead I’m interested to know that, during all those the years, how did know that a certain song wasn’t yet ready to be recorded and released? At which point, and on which grounds, did you decide that these six songs would make it to Vast Oceans Lachrymose?
I’ve always had something of an inate sense as far as recognizing song flow within an album; I’ve always approached albums the same way I finalize the arrangement of songs, always striving for effortless transitions that either maintain a specific atmosphere or shift radically in a different direction. More often than not, the music itself ”speaks” to me and dictates how the puzzle comes together. It is because of this that even if an individual song is something we’re all excited about, if it doesn’t fit within the context of the rest of the material at hand, it will be set aside; obviously we could’ve included ”Vessel,” ”To Wander The Void,” or ”Living Sepulchre” on either of the previous albums – or even on the ”Lovesongs Of The Forsaken” EP, but don’t you think that these more midtempo, less morose (comparitively), more traditional songs would’ve stood out like sore thumbs in the context of those albums? Sure, it would’ve made them more diverse, but doing so just for the sake of that, without considering the entire experience of an LP makes no more sense than playing ”doom for the sake of doom.” As far as I can recall, the three aforementioned songs were always destined for ”VOL,” and of course by 2001 the title track and ”The Furthest Shore” had been completed, so all of the songs that ended up on the album were very much intended to be part of it prior to the recording of ”Empires.” What is perhaps more interesting is why we elected to remove the other 8 songs we’d written and rehearsed for ”VOL” – but I’m sure we’ll get back to that later!
Knowing that most of the material for Vast Oceans Lachrymose was done before Rain Irving joined the band, how would you characterise his impact on the album and in what ways did his involvement make the album different than you’d envisioned earlier?
Rain’s biggest contribution to ”VOL” and WHW so far would be his world-class voice. While we finalized a few harmonies and arrangements together (most notably the chorus of ”Vessel”), basically my vision of the album vocally has remained unchanged; I still wrote all the lyrics, 99% of the melodies, articulated how they should be delivered, and even went so far as to do vocal demos with Rain, so the primary difference is it’s his incredible voice interpreting all this as opposed to mine. That said, I’m quite sure things will become more collaborative in the future, as Rain is a capable multi-instrumentalist and songwriter in his own right, and further, I think the rest of the band members are starting to see that WHW isn’t committed to a particular style nor interested in ”playing it safe.”
It’s beyond me and many other people that you don’t like your own singing that much. Besides that, do you think the material needed a different kind of vocalist this time? I mean, do you think the more epic and more heavy metal (and not doom) approach of the album demanded a different voice?
Actually, it’s quite natural and natural for vocalists to be hypercritical of their own voices...some just ignore this, some are too egocentric to care, and others eventually acclimate to the sound of themselves in a playback scenario. The material itself didn’t necessarily demand a different voice per se, but the fact that it is quite a bit more challenging to play instrumentally certainly meant it would be years (if not impossible) for me to master playing and singing some of these songs simultaneously. The melodies and harmonies would’ve surely been identical to what you’re hearing on ”VOL” had I sung them, but my voice tends to be a bit more bellowing compared to Rain’s and I accent things with more force...not necessarily better or worse, just different. When all is said and done, now, I cannot hear anyone else other than Rain singing these songs, and again, he did a kick ass job with them.
You’ve said the following about the song Living Sepulchre: “It is very much short and to the point, but a song of complete madness as well…I mean consider there are vocal and guitar harmonies ala Queen juxtaposed against almost black metal chord progressions in Living Sepulchre – believe it or not, it sounds almost identical to what I heard in my head!” I understand you’re educated in music to the extent of a college degree, so how much does theory come into play when you compose music? Or would you say that you’ve been influenced more just by listening to music?
Given that all of the music comes first through revelation, theory doesn’t even come into play until much later on in the process; concepts of arranging, orchestration, and theory are only applied after the songs have written themselves naturally – not a single foundation note has been committed through force, so with that in mind, I’m sure it’s primarily the massive amount of music that I’ve been exposed to that leads me down certainly paths. When it comes to orchestration and arrangements, a great deal of theory and thought goes into the songs, but at the core, ultimately there’s still a basic tune that could stand alone with the bare minimum of instrumentation.
Going back quite a few years, then, you said in an older interview that “the most significant change musically (and ideologically) stemmed from the unexpected loss of both my first love, and that of my innocence.” And you’ve also stated that you’ve gone through “philosophy, religion, psychedelic experimentation, psychology, and literature, but only found more questions (and addictions).” I don’t mean to open up old wounds, but how would you say that those things changed you musically? I mean, exactly how did you notice the distinct difference in yourself musically?
The biggest difference between the earliest songs and those that came after my first major downfall (for lack of a better word), is the emotional content...the actual way the songs are felt and performed even; early on, it was all about expanding musically (beyond the scope of our previous band, which in essence was early US underground power metal ala Metal Church, the first Overkill, Liege Lord, etc.) – incorporating elements of thrash, doom, death, black, prog, classical, jazz fusion....it was wide open and liberating...but emotionally opaque. When everything changed for me in terms of my mental, emotional, and spiritual states, so did the music...it wasn’t about adventure or creativity rather pure emotion...ALL emotion...catharsis through expression. It certainly wasn’t a conscious thing at the time, but I definitely started to play what I felt in my heart and soul rather than what I used to think about from a musical perspective.
Like many musicians, I guess, you’re also seeking “the truth” with your music? How would you characterise this “truth”? Is it a sort of spiritual enlightenment that you feel you’re edging towards (or perhaps seeing glimpses of) through your music?
While there is no question the amount of brooding and soulsearching that each of these albums has involved certainly paves the way for some kind of enlightenment, the reality is that the real trancendence for me is coming to terms with my past, relieving myself of the emotional burdens, and ultimately returning to a sense of homeostasis. In many ways, the process of a WHW album incorporates the stages of bereavement – shock and disbelief, denial, anger, eventually acceptance; the peace of acceptance is like that of no other, and WHW has helped me to reach this several times when just prior I thought all was lost and I was ready to give up on this life. Even as recently as ”VOL” this process enabled me to move forward with life with some semblance of normalcy, and that’s all the ”truth” I need honestly.
What can you say about the forthcoming “Fear Of Infinity” album? How ready is the album musically and how would you characterise its style? With WHW it should go without saying that line-ups tend to be temporary but would you like this line-up to record the forthcoming album as well?
Remember the 8 songs I mentioned earlier in this interview, that we decided to leave off the ”VOL” album? ”Fear Of Infinity” is largely composed of these, but an additional 10+ minute epic that is unquestionably the greatest WHW composition of all has been added to round it out. Basically, all but the latter have been ready for recording since we began the ”VOL” cycle, and the reason they weren’t included is because ”The Furthest Shore” continued to grow, eventually into mammoth proportions...I felt that ”Shore” deserved it’s own space as the focal point of ”VOL.” rather than ”competing” against other ”shocking” tracks. I say shocking because this material is even more diverse than the whole of the ”VOL” album...but on the same token, it’s ”cut from the same cloth” in many ways, which makes sense being that ”Fear Of Infinity” is, in essence, the other half of ”VOL” – it just happens to be a much darker, more aggressive, less progressive album...at least when speaking of individual songs...as a whole, ”Fear Of Infinity” is more progressive in the respect that, all of the songs combine to create one, album-long entity (though it isn’t truly one song....each song has a clear beginning and end, but the way they fit together, the whole album could be performed as a suite or symphonic poem). Many of these songs are short and some of them are the fastest in the discography, but more epic than anything we’ve ever done. The remainder of the songs harken back to the ”Sorrow Of The Angels” era in many ways, which makes sense considering a couple actually were outtakes from that album. Thus ”Fear Of Infinity” is 50% epic symphonic aggression and 50% melancholic doom-oriented material...all of which is as I said, much darker than ”VOL” or ”Empires.” Regarding the line-up, apart from Trevor coming in permanently in 2004 and Rain joining the fold in 2008, the rest of us have been playing together for 11 years, so it’s almost assured that this line-up will remain intact...but we should all cross our fingers anyway haha!
Another question before we wrap it up: What (if anything) is happening with Solstice? I remember Rich Walker from earlier this year saying that he’s been composing and doing demos on new material... Do you think you’ll sing/play on any future Solstice releases?
Rich has quite a bit going on these days – now he’s a father of three, very busy with The Miskatonic Foundation, just had a lengthy stint with Pagan Altar, and is also dealing with some personal challenges. I certainly hope he’s making progress on the Solstice front, and there was a time not so long ago where it appeared that I’d be involved again, but being that there has been no news for quite some time, your guess is as good as mine. I’m certainly open to the idea of collaborating with Rich – I’d love to have the chance to fulfill the potential that we didn’t manage to realize back in the 90’s, but obviously I’m quite busy with WHW these days, and who knows what Mr. Walker has planned. I’ve heard talk of an all-English line-up, but nothing is confirmed as far as I know. If I were to be involved with Solstice, my understanding is that it would be in the capacity of a guitarist, which honestly is preferable. Let’s hope that long-awaited 3rd album does eventually manifest itself one way or another!
To conclude the interview: What old/new albums have you been spinning lately? It was a nice surprise to see that you’ve also been obsessed with the Japanese Mono recently, because I’m also an avid fan of their music. What strikes you as special in their music?
For the past few years I’ve been primarily been devouring live recordings of Floyd, King Crimson, Dio-era Rainbow, Sabbath – anything involving large amounts of improvisation....which is always exciting and inspirting to hear. Otherwise, I’ve been quite impressed by the new releases from Argus, Sinister Realm, Griftegard, Battle Ram, Revelation, etc. Regarding Mono...their music is simply so deep, beautiful, emotional, I cannot help but be completely engrossed with it....its really amazing to hear such strong, sweeping melodies juxtaposed against thunderous cacophony...and I also appreciate the very Japanese qualities of it (ever consider how all that tremolo picking resembles Koto techniques?). ”Hymn To The Immortal Wind” is one of the best albums of the year and I had the honour of witnessing one of the NYC shows with orchestra...which was utterly amazing...brought me to tears on 3 separate occasions it was so powerful.
Anything you want to shout out to fans and friends in Finland?
Hail to all of my brothers and sisters our there! I really hope to see all of you very soon again...and for everyone who has waited so patiently all these years for ”VOL” – who have continued to support WHW through all....thank you so much, from the bottom of my heart....I really hope that ”VOL” was worth the wait for you!
Many thanks for the interview!
Thank YOU for the opportunity to talk about the album and WHW in general...and even more for the very thought-provoking questions...your support is extremely appreciated!