Interview with Jeff Wagner (former editor of Metal Maniacs magazine), August 2002

Let's start with a generic question, but one that needs asking: Can you tell us the inspiration behind the band's genesis, and can you detail the band's early years, leading up to the Into The Wells Of Sorrow 7"?

Towards the end of 1989, fellow guitarist Chris Galvan and I found wanted to explore new musical territory after our previous project, Polaris, had come unraveled. Polaris was more or less traditional power metal influenced by Iron Maiden, Judas Priest, Black Sabbath, and Metallica, but our tastes had diversified quite a bit by the time we disbanded; Chris was exploring a lot of 20th century classical and contemporary fusion along the lines of Allan Holdsworth or Frank Gambale, while I continued traveling deeper into the underground, listening to bands like Voivod, Coroner, Sacrifice, Dark Angel, Sadus, and Death. Our common ground however, fell closer to Fates Warning, Queensryche, Mercyful Fate, Slayer, Candlemass , so these influences, along with Kitaro, provided the inspiration to create this band.

The initial line-up consisted of Chris and myself on guitar, Chris' younger brother Brendan handling the vocals, and drummer Larry Green, a Californian who was significantly older than us. Needless to say, Larry did not last a week, so we brought in former Polaris drummer Jim Chappell shortly thereafter. We'd already composed our first song, "The Mourning," and had assumed the moniker Dream Wytch.

As evidenced above, the long trend of line-up changes began almost as soon as we started rehearsing, and by early 1990, Chris had left to focus on jazz guitar (subsequently enrolling at Berklee College of Music in Boston), while Brendan moved on to another band called The Fifth Season, who featured future Dysrhythmia guitarist Kevin Hufnagel, Josh Pantke later of Sorrow Bequest/Widow, and classical guitarist Christopher Ladd amongst their line-up.

In the meantime, Jim and I continued developing our original material, which at this time included the songs "Woman Of Shadows," "Under Veils Of Unbroken Night," "Spectral Exile," and "Bound By Depression" - the latter of which became the basis for "Thus With A Kiss I Die" years later, but none of the other songs have ever been recorded.

The line-up changes continued throughout 1990; we added bassist Chad Peevy, and went through a string of guitarists, but only David Bornhauser lasted for more than a couple rehearsals.

Up to this point, the band had existed solely for musical reasons, striving to fuse various styles and elements into a dark, heavy, and unique blend. It was fairly progressive for it's time; we would rapidly shift between epic doom, thrash, atmospherics, and avant-garde in single compositions, albeit more haphazardly than we do now.

The most significant change musically (and ideologically) stemmed from the unexpected loss of both my first love, and that of my innocence. I was devastated. After years of tumultuous familial dysfunction, losing my best friend and deepest confidant left me in ruins, opening a void of questions, sadness, and darkness within me. This forced me to search for meaning, answers, and hope, after everything I knew to be true beforehand had been undone. Ultimately, this quest led me through philosophy, religion, psychedelic experimentation, psychology, and literature, but I only found more questions (and addictions).

Somewhere in the middle of all this chaos, I had a realization: the answer was all around me and within me the whole time - music. Music has been the only constant in my existence; while gods and men have failed, music has provided solace, empathy, inspiration, enlightenment, and most importantly an outlet for expressing myself.
This was the beginning of While Heaven Wept, as we know it - a vehicle for catharsis through expression, the forum to say all the things I could not articulate otherwise, and my means of coping with loss.

The actual moniker was insurrected in 1991, exactly one year to the day that I lost my love, and it was derived from the "mystical event" that took place on October 18th, 1990; I received her letter on a brilliant, sunlit afternoon…it was our anniversary. As I read her words, the tears welled up in my eyes; I can only remember a couple lines from the letter now - "I'm not the only one in this world," and "I've just given up." Gutted, I collapsed to the ground, weeping my eyes out, choking on reality…just then, the sky went black and opened in anguish above me…the sorrow of angels washing over me - my heart burst in her hands, while heaven wept.

Needless to say, from that point forward, WHW has been as it is now - the realization of my deepest thoughts and emotions…my one and my all.

The name change also coincided with the departure of Jim Chappell, whom I considered to be the last original member besides myself, so that which was Dream Wytch had in essence, ceased to exist.

The 1991 line-up was comprised of vocalist/guitarist Kenny Thomas, drummer James Wharton, and myself, plus a plethora of bassists: a guy named "Diamond" Dave was with us for a couple months before Jason Stone took over, but it was Chad Peevy who handled the bass chores through to the summer of 1992. During this time, songs like "Into The Wells Of Sorrow" and "In Aeturnum" were developed, replacing older songs that I considered to be unrepresentative or otherwise obsolete.

By the summer of 1992, the band fractured apart mainly due to James' decision to leave music to focus on building a family, so during that lull between drummers, I joined up with a local death metal band called Parasitic Infestation, who featured an extremely talented drummer named Jon Paquin. I brought Chad along with me into Parasitic initially, and he chose to stay on with them after I'd refocused on WHW that winter. This meant I had to build a brand new line-up all over again, and fortunately I'd met ex-Punishment bassist Gabe Funston, an acquaintance of P.I. Together, we rebuilt WHW with Jon Paquin, who agreed to cover the drum parts as a favor to me. The seeds were sewn for the most productive WHW line-up to date.

Aligned emotionally and musically, we began rehearsing in January 1993, intent on reaching the studio to finally record all the songs I'd been composing all those years, and after a year of intense rehearsals, we entered Neptune Studios to lay down the tracks for our debut album "Sorrow Of The Angels." Being perfectionists, the sessions stretched from weeks into months and subsequently, our plans changed along the way once it became apparent that these takes were not sufficient for an album.

In the meantime, we were given the opportunity to appear on a Northern Virginian compilation that was being financed by Parasitic's vocalist Shane Privette for his new Open Eye Records label called "Scenecubator." Appropriately, the first offering of WHW music to the public was also the first song written for the band, "The Mourning," and it was released early in 1994, garnering much local acclaim.

Our ongoing recording sessions often became frustrating as the pressure mounted to follow-up on the positive reaction to "The Mourning." After a particularly trying day of vocal tracking, I blew off some steam while the tape was rolling by delivering a few verses in the guttural death metal fashion, which I had not implemented since my first attempt at singing back in 1990. These takes were never intended to be released publicly, but came off with enough conviction to meet our standards, so we decided to release them anyway, albeit in an extremely limited edition, just so we had something of our own to give in appreciation to those who had stood behind us since 1989. This became the "Into The Wells Of Sorrow" 7", released on Open Eye Records in a pressing of 500 hand-numbered copies during the fall of 1994.

The remaining tracks from the first Neptune sessions surfaced shortly thereafter as the "Lovesongs Of The Forsaken" promotional cassette, and subsequent CD-EP in 1995.

I know you love Solitude Aeternus; was the 7-inch title a tribute of sorts to them, or just strange coincidence? (S.A.'s first-and greatest-album is entitled Into The Depths Of Sorrow.)

I suppose both really; I wrote "Into The Wells Of Sorrow" before I'd really heard of Solitude, but once I had, I thought it was an amazing coincidence myself, so by the time we released the 7", it became a bit of a "shout out" to our doom brothers. At that time we were establishing a relationship with them, and it all seemed fitting since they were the only other Epic Doom Metal band in the USA. Over the years, John Perez has been a great supporter of WHW, and I will always be grateful for his brotherhood.

It's amazing to think that While Heaven Wept has been around now for 10 years, especially given the, err, "careful" pace of official output in that time (four releases, only one of them a full-length). Why the extremely slow pace of recording? Are you too much of a perfectionist, or are uncontrollable circumstances to blame?

Is there such a thing as being "too much" of a perfectionist? <Laughing> Truthfully, there are a myriad of factors relating to the slow rate of WHW's recording process: First and foremost, we invest a lot of time developing the material so that it can be realized the way I envision it, and we tend to be meticulous in the studio, even without the luxury of a large budget…and money is ALWAYS a factor, so often the sessions are spread out over ungodly lengths of time.

As for uncontrollable circumstances, you can factor in equipment failures, changes in technology, as well as more personal issues like legal problems, substance abuse/addictions, conflicting schedules, and various domestic responsibilities - all of these contribute to the funereal pace.

There is also the fact that most of the members of WHW over the years have been involved with other musical projects simultaneously, myself included, and that definitely affects the amount of time that we have to rehearse and record.

But my final excuse is "Doom is meant to be slow."

Let's address the re-recording of your older While Heaven Wept songs. Without going into the painstaking details, you seem to re-record older tracks as much as you offer new songs. Are you never satisfied? What re-recorded songs can we expect on the forthcoming projects?

Hmmmmm…Well, no matter how meticulous we are throughout the recording process, it is extremely difficult to capture the songs on tape the way I hear them in my head, so it would be safe to say that I am seldom satisfied. Sometimes it is a performance issue, but most often, the results of production are what sends me back in to re-cut tracks; there is only so much you can do when an instrument proves to be unsatisfactory or something is miked improperly.

Another aspect of this is the fact that I view my compositions as if they were my children; they grow and evolve with every passing year, line-up change, or advance in technology.

In the end, I want the songs to sound the way I intended them to, and the clarity of expression is as important as the quality of the production. The bottom line is, my satisfaction is paramount, and I am only willing to compromise so much, because I write this music for myself first and foremost.

As for what songs we'll be re-recording on forthcoming releases, the answer is simple since the first four WHW releases are now out-of-print, and in some cases, really only demos in my opinion: ALL OF THEM <Laughing>.

"In Aeturnum" and "Sorrow Of The Angels" will be included on the next full-length "Of Empires Forlorn," featuring the more elaborate orchestrations I mentioned in the liner notes of "Lovesongs." The entire "Sorrow Of The Angels" album will be re-recorded at Assembly Line to insure the production I intended for it, and we will include a few bonus tracks, some of which we did actually record during the original sessions, but did not release on the Eibon version. This will be the definitive edition…I promise <Laughing>! And, for those who've expressed concerns regarding "Thus With A Kiss I Die," no, I will not be re-writing the piece, rather incorporating the various countermelodies and harmonies that were omitted during the mixdown of the original, as well as a few tasteful embellishments that developed through our live performances of the piece.

I do not anticipate re-recording any of the aforementioned songs ever again, once these sessions have been completed…to the relief of many I am sure <Laughing>. And, I want everyone to know that the intention is to get the music of WHW correctly represented, and much more readily available; all of the releases prior to "Empires…" have been extremely limited, so if you own a copy of "Lovesongs…" or "Sorrow…" you should consider yourself lucky, because even some of our personal friends STILL do not have copies.

I believe Jim Hunter said it best: "We're not crazy…we know what we are doing."

You've amassed a massive arsenal of recording plans, some of which you're currently in the middle of, and some of which are still on the backburner. Can you detail each and every one of these, why they are being released, and when? (I'm thinking of the anthology double-vinyl release and the next two full-lengths).

Let me address the Anthology first, since it did not require any actual new recording on our part; It is entitled "Chapter One: 1989-1999," and contains everything we released during our first decade of existence, including one bonus track from the original "Sorrow Of The Angels" sessions. Because it is also an extremely limited edition release (500 copies), and vinyl on top of that, it does not make our plans to re-record various pieces redundant in any way. It has just been released by Metal Supremacy in Germany, who we will be working with exclusively when it comes to vinyl pressings of a 12" nature. I would recommend contacting them immediately if anyone is interested in getting a copy, because once this collection is sold out, those recordings will no longer be available in any form.

Anyway, I would not regard our plans to be a "massive" arsenal, but there ARE quite a few, which is only strange in the respect that most bands can't wait to get OUT of the studio, and the fact that we've released so little in 14 years…but we'll be making up for that now.

Currently, we are in the middle of recording the new full-length album "Of Empires Forlorn," which should be complete by the end of 2002; we've been on a break for most of this summer because the studio was booked for a major session from July through November. The plan right now is to release a limited edition digipak version, once again through Italy's Eibon Records, in early 2003, and standard jewel box versions both domestically and in Europe once we secure licensing agreements (interested parties should contact us). There will be exclusive bonus material on all of the different pressings, mostly alternate mixes, but some additional material in some cases.

Outside of the studio, we are rehearsing the material for the third full-length album, "Vast Oceans Lachrymose," which we plan to record late in the spring of 2003, since 90% of the material was written before we started the "Empires…" project. There are not really any concrete details regarding this release, other than it will be out sometime towards that winter, and it will be available in multiple formats.

In both cases, the material, while still clearly Epic Doomed Metal, grows increasingly diverse; rather than opting for the redundant approach of attempting to re-create "Epicus Doomicus Metallicus" for a third or fourth time, we've adopted a more consciously progressive direction, in an attempt to further elaborate upon EXISTING elements, as well as incorporating some new ideas, WITHOUT betraying where we come from in "Metallica fashion."

Nevertheless, following "Vast Oceans Lachrymose," will be the "Sorrow Of The Angels: Definitive Edition" mentioned previously, but the ARE a few other releases to watch for, which are basically singles from the albums, all of which will feature exclusive mixes and/or otherwise unreleased material. The first one of these will be the single for "The Drowning Years," which will precede the release of the "Empires…" album. It will be available around October 2002, in a limited pressing, courtesy of Maniacal Records.

After the release of the Sorrow Of The Angels full-length in late '98, you spent some time as an active member of Arise From Thorns (now known as Brave). What drew you to that band, and why have you since left?

When Jon and I were putting together the performing line-up of WHW (Dan Ingerson, bassist on the "Sorrow Of The Angels" album was living in Philadelphia by this time, so it was not conducive to practicing or performing), I called upon Scott Loose to be the second guitarist because he'd been in WHW before, around the time "Lovesongs…" came out, but had since come a long way with his own band Arise From Thorns, so he was the only choice as far as I was concerned. Plus, his sister Michelle (also of AFT) played keyboards, so I figured we'd bring both of them in for the gigs, and fortunately they agreed. We began rehearsing at their house, alternating practice time with AFT, so we spent a lot of time talking, listening, and playing music together. By the time we'd done the first couple WHW gigs, AFT were heading into the studio to record a new demo (which turned into the "Before An Audience Of Stars" album), and I accompanied them to most of their sessions, lending an ear, and some suggestions based on WHW's experiences there. I ended up playing a couple bars on "Time Alone," and some keys on "I Can't Believe," but my greatest contribution was to the final arrangement of "Bluer Skies." After having been involved in that capacity, really just an outsider on the inside, they asked me to join them onstage, which seemed natural after all the time we'd spent together, and besides, I was definitely a fan of their music by this time; I saw the potential for something really great, and was happy to be a part of it.

Things went well as far as the initial gigs were concerned, and I officially joined, but ended up moving to the West Coast for a few months while the CD was being pressed. My stay in Oregon was brief, as I incurred some legalities, and got the hell out of there, ultimately rejoining AFT onstage the night I got back to Virginia. From there on out we gigged quite a bit, and WHW was on the backburner, especially since Jim was busy with October 31, and Jon had already become disillusioned to the point that he and I no longer communicated. In the meantime, AFT ended and Brave began around March 2000, we spent most of that spring/summer writing new material together in between the steady gigging. This lead to the "Waist Deep In Dark Waters" EP, which I contributed to greatly, and I am still very proud of it. We continued gigging, but I had become weakened by yet another failed relationship, after which, I turned back to the bottle…and this affected both my performing ability as well as my already heavy personality. That was pretty much the beginning of the end. You see, Brave could never communicate to begin with, and I was becoming more and more negative, so coupling these realities with the inherit lack of direction of the band lead to an ever-thickening tension. There was always a lifestyle difference between myself and Brave, but it was not really a problem until it got out of control, which it did rapidly, so by the time we actually were inspired again, coming up with songs like "Escape" and "Falling Into Bliss," it was too late; tension had consumed the band, I'd radiated so much negativity and become so unreliable on account of my drinking, that I ultimately (unknowingly) dug my own grave. In April of 2001, I found myself in the excruciating position of having to fire myself based on my own values, just when I was getting myself back together. Thus, we parted ways…not nearly as amicably as it was portrayed in the press either. I was completely lost and completely gutted. I admit that I brought a lot of it upon myself while I was out of control, but the way the split transpired was truly abysmal.

Meanwhile, I had already been working on WHW again, so the split with Brave made me more determined than ever to rise above all this. After the by-then obligatory line-up changes, we really started hitting a stride developing the material that would become the "Empires…" album. The catharsis was profound and immediate, subsequently, tensions gradually eased between the remaining members of Brave and myself. I always felt bad, for casting such a shadow over things, and to this day I regret my actions, but cannot undo them either so the best I could do was try to bury the hatchet so to speak. I have to give Scott a lot of credit for sticking with both bands through all of this; I know it was extremely uncomfortable. Needless to say, in the end, the split was for the best, because they were able to go on and do what they wanted to do; there WAS a difference in musical aspirations that predicated my negative attitude towards some of the new Brave compositions. Conversely, I was able to focus on WHW with more vigor than I had since 1997 or so. We've since been mending relationships between the bands, and I am thankful for that, because now we can work together again professionally and platonically. I don't see a reunion of the original Brave line-up anytime soon, and perhaps there never will be, but what is most important is that we have salvaged our friendships. The truth is, we really are a family. Sometimes familial dynamics change, but a deeper bond will always remain between Brave and WHW.

Please detail the current membership of WHW, and what they bring to the band. Is it fair to say you are the Leif Edling or Tony Iommi of WHW? So as long as you are present, While Heaven Wept will maintain its integrity and legitimacy, no matter who comes or goes?

The current membership is as follows: myself, handling the vocals, guitars and keyboards, Jim Hunter (Twisted Tower Dire/October 31/Revelation) on bass, Scott Loose (Brave) on guitars, Jake Bodnar (Overdose) and Greg Schwan (Betray My Trust/ex-Forty Days Longing) on keyboards, Jason Gray (ex-Forty Days Longing) on drums, Paul Lipscomb on guitars, and Michelle Loose (Brave) handling additional vocals. This is an expanded line-up developed for the purpose of live performances, but the line-up on "Empires…" consists of Jim, Scott, Jake, Jason, and myself (however it is possible that the others may contribute in some capacity before the final mixing).

Everyone brings something to this band for sure, but the uniting trait is an unquestionable love for the music itself, which is quite refreshing considering the apathy of some previous members. As far as individual characteristics, Jason brings willingness and conviction, Jake possesses a raw talent and experimental curio, Scott brings precision and articulation, Paul has extensive studio experience and instrumental technique, Greg offers reliance and insurance…he knows what doom is firsthand, Michelle has THE voice - plain, and simple, and Jim…well, he is my right hand man - possessing knowledge of a wide array of music, he is instrumental to the development of the final arrangements, he keeps us running efficiently, and is the only one that can handle endless discussions of microcosmic details. <Laughing>

As for myself…well, I suppose it would be safe to say that I am the musical director, and for the past 14 years, the resident composer of While Heaven Wept music. I am indeed the sole founding member that remains, so in that respect you could say that I am the Edling or Iommi of WHW. Plus, considering the fact that all of the songs are based on my life experiences, I don't think that WHW would be the same without me. Therefore, when all is said and done, it is my personal mission to insure that WHW ALWAYS maintains its integrity; I will never allow anything half-assed to represent WHW, and I will never perform doom for the sake of doom either; it is safe to expect certain traits in WHW music: the epic feeling, a melancholy vibe (since some things are carried forever, in terms of life-altering changes), intelligence, emotional intensity, and musicality, but I would endeavor to suggest that the diversity of the first 6 Queensryche albums is a more likely path for WHW than the comfort of every AC/DC album that comes along where you basically know EXACTLY what you are going to get.

On that note, how much room will members like Jim Hunter (October 31/Revelation/shameless fan of Rhapsody) have to contribute to the writing?

Jim, Scott, Greg, Jake, and Paul are all capable songwriters in their own right, and just because I've composed everything so far, does not mean that is the way it will always be. Whatever anybody brings to the table will be given a chance; not everything works every time, even my own ideas. I view the possibility of collaboration within this group of people as an untapped resource that will surely produce inspired music of the same quality, if not better than what people have come to expect.

When you openly talk about the plans for WHW for the next few years, do you realize you run the risk of never being able to deliver it all? Celtic Frost did the same thing, they got derailed/disillusioned/sidetracked before stuff like the promised Necronomicon or Linebacker Three could be released.

The only thing that will stop me from producing what has been discussed would be death…and even then, I would hope that the surviving members would fulfill our plans; all of the music we've talked about in this interview is complete, so there is no excuse for not delivering it all. Mind you, it may take longer than we've planned, but it is a virtue of mine to follow through with what I say, regardless of how long it takes or what obstacles may arise. An example of this would be to research the early interviews I did…talking about "Sorrow Of The Angels" and "Vast Oceans Lachrymose" as far back as 1994; it's taken years for them to be realized, but eventually they appear.

You have mentioned that after the third full-length (if I hear you correctly) you will dissolve the band…but you say it may dissolve so you can put together the performing personality of the band. Can you go into more detail about this? How important is the live performance aspect, as compared to the writing and recording aspect?

Well, as evidenced above, we've already come up with another solution for the performing line-up: expansion. However, the discussions you and I have had regarding dissolution revolved around a feeling that I have occasionally of WHW having served its purpose or reaching a creative peak, but I can say that right now that I feel like we are only just beginning. Additionally, recent events in my life have lead me to the conclusion that I am indeed doomed in some capacity, therefore WHW is as legitimate now as it was in 1991; no matter how great things are, no matter how great a success I experience, no matter how happy I am, there will always be something equally grim that undoes or negates it.

As for live performance, in the case of WHW, it is not as important because of the personal and intimate nature of the material, at least in an ideological sense. On the other hand, if done properly, it can convey the true power of the music in the most suffocating, crushing, fashion…it is impossible to NOT be moved deeply when the band is unified in its delivery and conviction.

From a business sense, it's crucial for artists to get out and promote their work if the intent is to reach as many people as possible, or be lucrative financially, but I've been content "existing in the shadows" for a long time now, and I certainly don't do this for money.

I do enjoy performing live though, as it is a chance to connect in a much deeper capacity with our audience, and on a good night, when the vibe is right…onstage and off…there is no greater high. Period.

You mentioned doing a Jane cover. Strange and welcome choice. Which song, and why? Do you feel your music reflects a detectable Jane influence?

The Jane song we are both interpreting and covering is the third track from 1977's "Between Heaven And Hell" album entitled "Voice In The Wind." This song was actually my introduction to the music of Jane; during my first of two brief stints with Grand Belial's Key (in early 1993), Valerio (a prog rock aficionado himself) played "Voice…" for me, stating that it was "the saddest song he'd ever heard," and I thought it was beautiful. Unfortunately, it would be years before I finally located a copy of the album myself, as for long time it was only available on CD as a bootleg from the vinyl, and only re-issued properly on the Repertoire Records label recently.

As for the decision to cover "Voice," it was apparent to everyone I played it for that it was simply the perfect song for WHW to interpret; it's obscure, haunting, dark, and it possesses a strikingly similar vibe to our own music. I would have never guessed when I started this band that we would be referencing obscure 70's progressive rock bands, considering we knowingly came from Candlemass and Fates Warning, but the truth is the music of WHW does have more in common with Jane, Pulsar, Faithful Breath, Novalis, or even Grobschnitt than it does with most contemporary metal, and even more so, now that I've spent a decade mining the progressive rock underground for other criminally overlooked/forgotten gems.

WHW is heavily influence by the likes of Jane (circa 1975-1978) now, but it wasn't until my prog-rock guru Bob Karnes said "Damn, you guys remind me of Jane" back when he heard "Sorrow Of The Angels"…I'd never even given them much of a thought since I'd only heard this one song a couple times years before, but sure enough, there are uncanny similarities at times.

It is a very important goal of mine to shed more light on some of the more obscure progressive and symphonic bands of the 70's through interviews, cover songs, and perhaps someday collaborations or concerts. For the curious, some of the artists I am referring to are: Pulsar, Eela Craig, Dom, Anyone's Daughter, Ramses, Necronomicon, Stern-Messien Combo, etc. along with the more obvious early King Crimson, Camel, Ange, or Genesis even.

I know you have wide-ranging musical tastes, but I also know you are a great fan of the style of music you play, which I suppose we can safely call epic doom metal, itself a rather small sub-genre. How do you feel about songwriters/musicians who claim they don't listen to music similar to theirs, because it may exert an unwanted influence? Do you think you could stop listening to any kind of doom metal and still be inspired to write as you do? (I'm asking without having heard the new stuff.)

Well, honestly I spend relatively little time listening to Epic Doom albums or more recent dark/progressive artists (i.e. Opeth), for the very reason of avoiding being influenced too strongly or subconsciously. I do not want to sound like our contemporaries at all; rather, I want to keep the sound of WHW unique, fresh, and limited only by our own boundaries. Of course, I am in the process of composing as of late, so I am more conscious of all this. I am not saying that I don't whip out the Candlemass albums now and then (especially considering the quality of those re-masters!), but you're more likely to find some obscure prog in rotation these days.

I mean, just looking at the stack of CD's to my left by the stereo, I have some Zappa, the entire Crimson discography, some Vidna Obmana, Slough Feg, the Venom re-masters, a Floyd bootleg circa 1970, Miles Davis (the '65-68 box), Kitaro, the last 3 Immortal albums, and some Barclay James Harvest re-masters…not one doom band.
Don't get me wrong…I will always love Solstice, Revelation, Solitude, Candlemass, Trouble, Witchfinder General, Dawn Of Winter, Cold Mourning, Mirror Of Deception, Millarca, Forlorn, and Thunderstorm…those are my brothers…I genuinely love their music too…although my primary influences have changed without question.

The thing is, I've always been aware of parallels between extremely different styles of music; another example: is the emotion in any given Hank Williams Sr. song all that removed from any given Anathema song? Not really. Emotion is the main influence on my music…not a sound or style or trend or shape. Having said this, I think that after 14 years, I've developed my own hybrid style, so whether I ever heard another doom metal album again, the music is in me and I am it.

Your chosen musical realm is a tiny field. Candlemass, Solitude Aeturnus, and only a few others over the years have made their mark, but the field is still wide open and generally unexplored. It's like being a young tech-metal band in 2002, where only a handful of bands (Atheist, latter-day Death, Mekong Delta, Watchtower) could be drawn for comparison. Any comments?

Well, I don't expect to be rich because of WHW <Laughing> …or any Epic Doom for that matter. But seriously, although in some ways it is a lonely place to be, I am very proud of what WHW is, and the company that we keep; It's no mystery that Candlemass were the fathers of this genre, and without them Solitude, WHW, Solstice, Forlorn and Millarca would not have existed…or, at the very least sound anything like we did. But, where do you go from there? With the Candlemass of yore long gone for all intensive purposes, Solitude having developed their own hybrid on the concept (again, far from the epic sounds of "Into The Depths…"), Solstice dormant (don't count Sir Rich Walker out yet!), and criminally, neither Millarca or Forlorn ever making it past the demo stage, this does seem to leave While Heaven Wept rather alone waving the Epic Doom Metal flag, albeit proudly.

When all is said and done I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with any of this, because I would much rather be considered "genre-defining" as opposed to being formulaic or derivative. I'm not saying that what we do is better than what came before us, but we have certainly taken Epic Doom to another level, at the very least in the compositional sense, with all the orchestration and variable forms we write in.

It would be excellent if there were another generation of Epic Doom on the horizon, and I would absolutely welcome any new bands into our family, but this does not seem very likely currently does it?

You've told me you prefer consonance in music, as opposed to dissonance. Please explain this further, and how it applies to While Heaven Wept. Name some bands from the metal and prog-rock circles (your two favorite music genres, I'm guessing) that you enjoy for their consonance, and the ones you dislike because of their dissonance. Of if it's difficult to be that specific, describe your general thoughts on this.

You know Jeff, when we discussed this several months ago I had a different perspective than I do now, in the sense that now I think consonance and dissonance are really a matters of opinion, rather than a textbook definitions. Fair enough, in the medieval and Baroque periods the intervals of 2nd's, 4th's and 7ths were considered extremely dissonant, but that is really only the from the viewpoint of western civilization. The thing is, over time, the harmonic palette has expanded quite a bit, especially from the Romantic period onward into Jazz and 20th Century classical music, but the conditioned listening of western civilization has remained more or less the same since the advent of well-tempered tuning. But happens if you were to perform a piece of music based entirely on seconds or fourths, then cadence on an octave? What is the dissonance then? The octave, something that is in truth a perfect harmony? You see what I am getting at as far as the perception of what is dissonant and consonant.

As for my tastes, being conditioned to the harmonic practices of western civilization, surely Journey is going to sound sweeter to me than Univers Zero, but I guess I've evolved to appreciate both sides of the coin. Even in our own music, I am incorporating more "traditional dissonances" to create a sense of tension and release (an example would be the use of 7th chords and chromatic modulation in "Of Empires Forlorn"), because man, it is a powerful thing.

Again, I can still say that, in a general sense, I prefer predominantly consonant music, but that does not mean I have a problem listening to the more abrasive King Crimson or even RIO bands, any more than I enjoy listening to "traditionally consonant" music from Bach to Boston, because it is all a matter of perspective.

I'm as big a fan of Fates Warning as you. Is it fair to say that if there were no Fates Warning, there would be no WHW? Feel free to ramble on about Fates Warning for as long as you like here…

Since the beginning of WHW, I have made no secret that Fates Warning is incredibly influential on my writing, even if it isn't immediately apparent in my compositions. Mind you, our music is more closely related to the "Spectre Within" and "Awaken The Guardian" era, but truthfully, Fates continues to be an influence to this day. I can't say that "Disconnected" is my favorite album of theirs by any means, but I definitely appreciate several of the pieces, and view them as a progression from "A Pleasant Shade…"

Would WHW exist if there were never a Fates Warning? Well, just like in the case of Candlemass, probably not, or at least not sounding like we do. I mean, "Guardian" changed my life even more profoundly than "At The Gallows End" did.

Those old Fates albums still rest comfortably in my personal hierarchy of the greatest albums ever recorded, and while a lot of the kids our there today might think that Hammerfall, Rhapsody, or Stratovarious are superior, they will never understand how magical the early Fates albums were when they came out, and how far beyond their time they were. It would be very easy to overlook them because of the 80 billion power metal bands there are now, but back in 1984 it wasn't like that, and Fates, for me, always will be the true definition of progressive power metal.

I was given the Lovesongs Of The Forsaken EP in 1995, and the person who handed it to me (who I honestly cannot remember) said something about Sinistrari being some white-power thing, or having political tendencies that way, and also mentioned something about Grand Belial's Key. Was the dude just bullshitting, or is there some kind of link there? And did Sinistrari release anything else?

When Sinistrari was created, it was solely for the purpose of releasing heavy, underground music…there was no political or social agenda. I know, because I was there, and involved, at least to the extent of co-producing "Lovesongs…" which was the first (and only?) CD release on Sinistrari.

There is definitely a link to Grand Belial's Key, because the three of us that started the label were all in the band! Once again, for all the controversy and bitchery out there, if anyone ever bothered to read the lyrics, GBK never had anything to do with fascism or white-power either, rather it was militantly anti-Christian.

We've all heard the stories about the GBK hordes since then, but you know, I have not been involved since 1994 or so, therefore I am not an authoritative source to comment on them or Sinistrari beyond my involvement nearly a decade ago.

As far as other Sinistrari releases, I think they were all cassettes…demos from the likes of Tristitia, Twisted Tower Dire, and possibly GBK, Crucifier, and Arghoslent.

Sadness, lamentation, forlornness, crying, death. These are interwoven and commonly-occurring themes in your music. Is your life really so hopeless and joyless?

It has not been an easy life. I can say in a general sense, that recently…that today… I am not feeling that way, but deep inside, I know that the doom never really leaves me. I've been hopeless to the point of suicide numerous times; I've been saddened to the point of catatonia; I've endured things that no one should ever have to experience, and a fair amount I've brought upon myself as well. What has always gotten me through is the music for one, and secondly, I learned not too long ago, the concept of acceptance. I've learned that I spent a lot of time asking the wrong questions, or expecting the wrong things, so I don't feel quite as hopeless these days generally. I keep my life simple, and invest myself much more carefully than I did in the past. I am stronger in sobriety than when I am toxic, but in the end, some pain never goes away. However, I have not given up yet, and at the very least, even if they are fleeting, there appear to be brighter lights ahead.

Do real men cry?

Yes, I believe that real men do cry; it is an instinctive reaction to painful and/or intense stimuli, whether emotional, or physical. Certainly some cultures frown upon emotional outbursts, and choke down upon painful feelings, but what does that lead to? Suicide bombings? Domestic violence? Sure, everyone has a different threshold for pain, but to suppress natural feelings/reactions to anything is definitely unhealthy. I will always adhere to the concept of expressing emotions, rather than quelling them, because only in facing them will you become truly honest with yourself.

Favorite While Heaven Wept song, and why?

This is virtually impossible for me to answer because they are all such different entities; absolutely no two are the same, so they are all my favorites. I will say that I am very proud of "The Drowning Years" because I feel like I managed to progress as a composer with all of it's dense counterpoint at the end, and also because I managed to make a complete statement as poignant as "Thus With A Kiss I Die" in a quarter of the time, but I truly do love all of my songs as my children.

Least favorite While Heaven Wept song, and why?

This is equally impossible for me to answer, because they are all so personalized, with individual meanings, and are children still growing. I used to say "Shores Of Desolation" when pressed back in the day, but now I quite like the song myself, however primal it is. It would be much easier to discuss my least favorite productions or performances, in which case I would have to say everything prior to the "Of Empires Forlorn" album, otherwise, I would not be re-recording everything!

Album of 2002:

The only album I can honestly say I've played over 50 times this year is Immortal's "Sons Of Northern Darkness." The production is phenomenal…so heavy, yet they really captured the coldness this time around, especially so on "Beyond The North Waves." The music is played with such conviction and intensity; only fools would deny it on account of the cartoon image. But, you know, the year is not over yet, so who knows what else might come out?

Greatest album of all time:

This is another one of those nearly impossible questions to answer, especially considering I own thousands and thousands of albums, plus my tastes are so diverse, I don't think I could ever pick one greatest album of all time. Even if we got sub-genre specific, it would till be impossible. I will give you a few of my all-time favorites as an alternative, although listing my favorite albums from the progressive genre would take another interview in itself: Queensryche - "Rage For Order," Arcturus - "La Masquerade Infernale," Celtic Frost - "Into The Pandemonium," Autopsy - "Mental Funeral," Entombed - "Left Hand Path," Slayer - "Hell Awaits," Candlemass - "Epicus Doomicus Metallicus," Emperor - "Prometheus," Rush - "Farewell To Kings," Anathema - "Judgement," Manowar - "Hail To England," Fates Warning - "Awaken The Guardian," Immortal - the last three albums, King Crimson - "In The Court Of The Crimson King," Black Sabbath - "Master Of Reality," Iron Maiden - the first 4, Sarah McLachlan - "Surfacing," Return To Forever - "Romantic Warrior," Journey - EVERYTHING except post-Steve Perry, because that is just bullshit.

Your listening-recommendation inside Sorrow Of The Angels is awesome. ("loudly, alone, without distraction…dark environment…open mind…") Is there any other way to listen to music? Is there such a thing as background music?

I think that listening to music without distraction is the only way to truly listen deeply to music, but very few people, even amongst musicians I know listen that way. As Leonard Bernstein once articulated, there are three levels of listening: using music as a background for other activities (immature), listening to music as an escape (the most common, but not most advanced), and lastly listening to the music itself (the most advanced or mature level of listening); how the melody is constructed, contemplating the interactions between the voices harmonically and rhythmically, recognizing form and structure (etc.). I strive to achieve that advanced listening state, but I can usually only achieve this in the environment I'd suggested, because side conversations and other distractions make it virtually impossible to focus that deeply. I admit that I've spent a fair amount of time spacing out to music as well, but I can't say that I ever "throw some music on" to fill space. Since the dawn of melody there's been such a thing as "background music", but it is a repulsive concept to me; how could anyone sit and eat dinner while Haydn debuted a new chamber piece? It blows my mind that music of that level was composed solely for that purpose. In this day and age, you have your elevator muzak and the candy coating of classics, but in my opinion, most of the prefabricated top-40 music out there is the closest thing to manufactured background music there is. I admit that I tune a lot of it out and opt for going through the library of music in my head instead. I'll stick to the challenging, stimulating, and inspiring - leave the rest to the clueless sheep.