Interview with Musik an Sich - November 2009

Hello Tom, congratulations to “Vast Oceans Lachrymose”! My name is Mario Karl from the German webzine “Musik an sich”, which means something like “music in itself”. The zine features various styles of music from classical music to Heavy Metal.
In my opinion your new CD is an absolute great album and one of the Heavy Metal highlights 2009. It really touched my heart with its melancholy and great melodies (like also Griftegard did). I gave it 18 of 20 points in my review. I have a couple of questions to you for an interview story in our webzine. I would please it very much if you would answer them. So here we go:

- What means While Heaven Wept personally to you, just kind of a simple hobby where you can express yourself or is a life without your band inconceivable for you?

Having spent more than half of my life doing While Heaven Wept, I think it is safe to say that it’s more than a hobby (despite what my parents STILL say, 20 years later)! Very early on, I realized that WHW was my therapy, catharsis, my way of saying things I didn’t have the words for otherwise, my expression and identity; this music is me, and I am it. At this point, I’m quite sure I will be leading WHW until the day I die.

- Where there dark phases in your life where you wanted to quit with While Heaven Wept or the music in general?

Sure…there have been several times that I felt discouraged, uninspired, or believed that I didn’t NEED to do WHW anymore – but even as recently as this year, it turned out to be the only thing that saved me from myself and my self-destructive urges. Those times that I’ve felt distant from the music, I can’t and won’t do it – this explains the occasional hiatus among other things, but given all the challenges in life, there’s always something that draws me back to this music. The reason WHW tends to convey such powerful emotions is because we only do it when the said feelings (and connection to the music) are intensely present.

- What keeps you going on with music?

A plethora of things really…primarily the need for dealing with emotions and circumstances that I cannot bear otherwise; WHW is absolutely the way I release negative thoughts and feelings in a constructive, liberating fashion. Additionally, there are always these melodies, rhythms, progressions, and words that randomly reveal themselves to me…that insist upon being “brought to life” – and I always submit to these revelations. Another very important motivation is knowing how the music of WHW has touched so many people’s lives in such a profound way – while this is still secondary to my own needs, it means a lot to WHW and myself to know that our music makes a difference in other people’s lives. If even just one person feels a connection because of our music, or no longer feels alone in this world…there is almost nothing more gratifying.

- What was the most stirring moment and the worst thing with While Heaven Wept?

The greatest moments of WHW are almost always the successful realizations of that which we heard in our heads and felt in our hearts, committed to vinyl or CD. If the expressions are accurate and the emotions/intentions are clear, it’s a success like no other. The hardest parts of WHW are the sheer number of sacrifices and losses that have occurred over the course of its existence; so many friendships, romances, opportunities, have been lost and even my physical/mental health has been put in jeopardy for this music…but on the same token, I probably wouldn’t be alive today if it weren’t for the solace and expression that is WHW.

- The journalist echo for “Vast …” is raving. Are you amazed about this fact and does this acknowledge you in what you do?

Honestly, we’re so incredibly surprised by the amazingly positive reception of “Vast Oceans Lachrymose” – in truth, we were quite concerned that we were about to alienate our entire audience or crash and burn in the media with this album, but it was a risk we had to take; even though we always knew there was more to WHW than what the rest of the world had heard (given a backlog of material stretching back two decades), the fact is, people already had a rather specific portrait of what While Heaven Wept is. That being said, we refused to let these fears or concerns influence what we were doing whatsoever…it was far more important that we stayed true to ourselves, who we are as musicians and individuals now as opposed to some preconceived image or sound. When all is said and done, we’re extremely flattered and grateful for all of the kind words about “Vast Oceans Lachrymose” – it’s truly humbling and heart-warming to receive these extremely generous accolades, which are in fact greatly appreciated…but true success remains the accurate expression of emotion and precise realization sonically.

- Your last album “Of Empires Forlorn” lies six years back. Why this long lag between the two releases, creative and personal reasons?

Following the European tour of 2004, during which the band was fragmenting apart, it became very clear that further line-up changes were imminent (with the departure of previous drummer Jason Gray and the establishment of his successor, Trevor Schrotz in particular) so this always sets things back a few steps. Once the dust had settled, we immediately commenced rehearsing the material that would eventually become “Vast Oceans Lachrymose,” being that it was for the most part composed in its entirety even before we recorded the “Of Empires Forlorn” album. We spent most of 2005 and 2006 in Salamone’s Recording Studio laying down the basic tracks – and considering we have always financed such endeavours out of our own pockets, this process takes a bit longer than it does for most bands. Eventually, it was decided that we should invest in all of the musical equipment we’d ever dreamed of prior to completing the album, so as to avoid urges later on to re-record anything (feelings I’m prone to have quite often, which apparently is something I’m known for haha). This “tonequest” took up a lot of time, energy, and money, ultimately resulting in the design and building of 100% custom gear, even down to the cables we now use. Towards the end of 2007, though this mission was completed successfully, I was completely burnt out from the process and our financial resources had evaporated. Additionally, this was “one of those times” where the music we’d recorded felt completely foreign to me (and more material that I did identify with had already been revealed to me), so even if we could afford to resume the recording process, I wasn’t feeling it, so thus, it wasn’t going to happen. Another major factor at this time that contributed to further delays was the reality that the other members of WHW all have other bands (Twisted Tower Dire and Brave for example) with live or studio commitments. Then, in January 2008, I became involved with another romance that I decided was important enough to prioritize above all…having learned from past scenarios that I cannot do WHW and be what I feel is necessary as a partner, I elected to leave the band on the backburner, and for once in my life, devote myself completely to this relationship. For a while this was the most fulfilling experience I’d had in a long time, and this resulted in one of those thoughts that “ perhaps I really COULD walk away from WHW now” – yet, I couldn’t have been more wrong; what ended up happening was I ended up abandoned once again by someone who I loved deeply…after I’d given everything I had…so much so that most people I knew couldn’t believe how hard I tried nor how far above and beyond I went to make this work…yet, even giving myself completely apparently was not enough. Earlier in 2009, I found myself standing over a frozen river in Scandinavia, alone, gutted, sick, suicidal – a place so dark and hopeless…a place that I hadn’t known in nearly 20 years…had it not been for true brethren like Peter Vicar (of Reverend Bizarre fame), I might not have ever made it back home. Even once I returned to the US, I was destroyed emotionally, spiritually, mentally...drinking away all the pain, feeling lower than low…unsure if I’d ever find my way out of this hell. To make matters worse, news of my brother and mother were both diagnosed with cancer, which was even more devastating (both are currently in a period of remission, thankfully). Eventually it dawned on me that the only thing that saved me from the hell of myself in the past was in fact While Heaven Wept…and clearly it was the time was right emotionally to once again immerse myself in this music. After a few baby steps towards the recording of a brand new song (which remains my greatest composition incidentally), and finally working on the vocal demos for “VOL” with Rain, what started as a flickering flame of hope soon became a raging inferno of inspiration…come Spring 2009, I’d thrown myself completely into the path of finally finishing this album. The work was extremely brutal, took a severe toll on my health, and involved quite a bit of soul-searching, not to mention weeks at a time with barely 2 hours a sleep a day…yet in the end, “VOL” is truly a success, in that not only did it save me, but I feel completely liberated from the past now. Never again will I underestimate the value and necessity of WHW.

- The music on “Vast Oceans Lachrymose” goes musically far beyond what most people see in Doom Metal. But in my opinion the feeling it spreads (melancholic, majestic, moving etc.) fits this term. What means the label “Doom Metal” to you and do you see While Heaven Wept as a Doom Metal band?

Allow me to answer the latter part of your question first: While Heaven Wept is NOT a Doom Metal Band in my opinion, and neither Prog Metal nor Power Metal as well, rather WHW is an amalgamation of all these things and much more; over the last 20 years we’ve developed something of a signature sound that can really only be described as “WHW Music” which in fact is perhaps more of a “Universal Metal” in that because there are so many different elements, there truly is something for everyone…at least in a metallic sense. Regarding Doom Metal in its purest sense…this is a definition that I myself have attempted to clarify in the past…pure Doom Metal is characterized by slow, heavy riffs, discernable melodies, with an often dark, ominous atmosphere having obvious influences such as Black Sabbath, Trouble, Saint Vitus, Candlemass, Solitude Aeternus, Witchfinder General and so forth. Clean vocals are integral the pure Doom Metal because it is in fact music so firmly rooted in emotion; more aggressive vocals often obscure the true message and feelings within this music. That isn’t to say there isn’t a place for slow, melodic Death Metal, and you could put all this music under the umbrella of Heavy Metal, but for me, in the same way that Nu Metal/Metalcore/rap-infused Rock isn’t pure in terms of the mothering genre, the same goes for bands that in actuality simply have “Doom Metal influences.” The bottom line is, when WHW began the only bands that were considered Doom Metal were those I mentioned above (plus Cathedral, Revelation, Penance, etc.)…literally there weren’t ever more than 20 bands out there, thus just because some other hybrid styles of metal and hard rock came along later and were referred to as such in the media or by various distros, doesn’t mean it is the case, rather a convenient label. Getting back to whether or not WHW is Doom Metal, based upon my own definition, the answer is clearly “no” – although there was an era from about 1991-1999 where we were very much so. It’s definitely not a case of turning our backs on our past, rather we’ve simply evolved as people and the music reflects that; we’ve NEVER committed ourselves to a particular genre, nor would we ever play “Doom for the sake of Doom” – we have to remain honest with ourselves as well as our audience. What really matters is that WHW music comes from the heart and soul alone.

- The album title fits perfect to the feeling of the album, which sound like a tragic journey over rough seas, with a glimpse of sunshine here and there. And the trip ends peacefully in the safe arms of the protagonists’ beloved. Is this cinematic feeling something you wanted to create from the beginning?

All of the WHW albums are thematic or cinematic ultimately…not necessarily conceptual though; every note, word, melody, and composition that appears on each LP is there intentionally…and really, the music itself determines the logical flow – we as a band merely submit to this. Considering the songs of which “VOL” is comprised span over 16 years time in some cases, there was no way I could’ve foreseen the end results…in fact, there wasn’t really a clear picture of the final results for quite some time, but the natural ebb and flow of the music determined the trajectory when all is said and done. That said, it would probably be worth noting that “VOL” is much like a Tarantino film, in that the order of the material isn’t chronological – there are cases of foreshadowing as well as flashbacks…while I don’t want to infringe upon anyone else’s experience or perception of the album, I’ll tell you that if you re-arranged the songs in a different order, a clear story develops. And it just so happens to be another chapter in my life’s story.

- Why this water and ocean metaphor - does it symbolize the up und down of life?

The ocean is indeed synonymous with human experience; be it times of calm with a cool breeze, or an utter maelstrom…the ocean (and nature in general) is certainly the ideal metaphor for life. It also reminds us of how small we are in the grand scheme of things, and evokes very strong feelings on its own…creating the compulsion to explore, challenge ourselves, face the unknown, or even just enjoy its beauty. Honestly, it’s difficult for me to remember exactly what my exact inspiration was when I first thought about “Vast Oceans Lachrymose,” as this album has been in development since 1995 at least!

- The lyrics like the music are also rather melancholic. They read like they are about a man who grieves for a lost love and a part of his life which is gone. Am I kind of right?

Well, as I mentioned previously, the lyrics very much tell the story of my life, and you’re certainly not too far off base in your perceptions, but it’s important to know that all of the material from “Empires” onward features lyrics that have two or even three meanings. There is quite a bit in the way of metaphor, and they can be interpreted in several ways…just as an example, in your own estimation, the story had a happy ending right? This may or may not actually be the case in reality, and likewise, might yield very different results for other listeners. While all of the material from the first decade of our existence revolved specifically around one particular relationship, everything since then refers to a great many things, so I prefer to remain silent about all the true meanings, instead allowing the listeners themselves to translate the lyrics however they perceive them.

- “Vast …” has a strong cover which fits perfectly to the album. Where did you find it?

I first discovered this John Martin painting in a BBC article randomly, and was immediately drawn to it…almost instantly I thought “Vast…Oceans…Lachrymose”…despite having had other visions for the cover for many years (originally I’d planned to use an actual photo of the sea raging). Ola from Griftegard told me that he could actually envision himself on this boat in the tumultuous seas whilst listening to the album, so I’d agree that it is a very strong and appropriate image!

- “To Wander The Void” sounds like a remainder from the John Arch era of Fates Warning. The promo info describes “Vast …” as the album early Fates Warning fans are waiting for. Is the album in general and this song especially kind of a tribute to this great band as this group is a big personal influence?

Early Fates Warning has always been one of our primary influences since the very beginning – and this era remains just as strong of an influence to this day…I’m quite sure it’s evident throughout all of our albums in some capacity, but perhaps more obviously on “VOL.” I wouldn’t go so far as to suggest that the album as a whole is a tribute to Fates Warning, and even “To Wander The Void” wasn’t originally intended to be when it was first realized back in 1993, but as the lyrics and melodies unfolded in a series of revelations it very much developed into a heartfelt tribute to them as much as it was a personal expression for me. Somewhere along the way, I realized that this song in particular was something of a amalgamation of melodies that could’ve come from “Night On Brocken,” lyrics that wouldn’t be out of place on “Awaken The Guardian,” riffs that recalled “The Spectre Within,” a heaviness paralleling “No Exit,” and a few complex time changes ala “Perfect Symmetry.” I couldn’t think of a better way to thank Fates Warning for the decades of inspiration than to dedicate this song which in some ways represents their first five albums in one entity, to them (and John Arch in particular). Maybe someday they might hear it and hopefully they’ll take it as a sincere tribute from the heart rather than some kind of ride upon their coattails.

- What makes this band so outstandingly for you?

For me, Fates Warning (until recently) always exerted deep emotions, provoked even deeper thoughts, and were always consummate musicians who wrote songs where every note was there for a reason. “Awaken The Guardian” in particular exudes this sensation of mystery and magic, that no one before or after has ever managed to duplicate. Above all though, unlike some of the other progressive metal bands out there, Fates Warning never lost sight of the song…it’s never just been endless complexity solely for the purpose of self-indulgence. I’ll hold those early albums near to my heart for the rest of my life, without question.

- With Rain Irving you have a new and great singer in your band who characterizes this album with his voice. Why have you stepped back from microphone and searched for a new vocalist?

The truth is I’ve been looking for a dedicated singer, who wasn’t a diva or psychotic for the last 14 years or so; when I first co-founded this band, I was nothing more than a guitarist and songwriter – I was neither the first nor the second lead vocalist, so being that “Vast Oceans Lachrymose” in some ways was the sound of WHW coming full circle, it made sense to me to bring in someone like Rain at this time. I only ever sang because I hadn’t found the “right” person to do it in all these years…of course, I aspired to be a singer since I was very young, but I never really liked my voice – and I’d never stand shoulder-to-shoulder with my favourite singers (Steve Perry, John Arch, Geoff Tate, Dio, Bruce Dickinson, etc.) no matter how hard I tried. The fact is I was and am a guitarist first…the only positive thing I can say about my vocals is that I could convey the emotions better than anyone, simply because the songs were the story of my life. I know there are a lot of people that feel otherwise, and I appreciate that, but I think my own contentment is a bit more of a priority. Beyond my own feelings about my vocals, there’s also the reality that this material is far more challenging to perform physically – it would’ve taken me years to even come close to singing and playing the guitar parts at the same time…plus, in the past I’ve always struggled to find the balance between two instruments in a live setting; I’ve never wanted to walk onstage and give anything less than 110% but inevitably, I always was spread thin, stressed, and ended up delivering 50% to each at best, which is totally unacceptable to me. For all of these reasons, and also because it was very clear that Rain was in fact the right singer to step into my shoes, I am absolutely certain this decision was in fact the correct one.

- Was he able to revive your personal lyrics like you wished he would?

Absolutely…I worked very closely with Rain, thoroughly explaining what I envisioned melodically, developing the harmonies together, and carefully detailing specific aspects of my vocal approach (in terms of diction, accents, vowel shapes, etc.), so that he may incorporate all these things into his vocal tracks. We even went so far as to have me demo the vocals so that he had the best possible reference rhythmically and otherwise. What he managed to do is incredible really…the vocal parts came together so quickly and naturally, he never once complained or faltered (even during the actual tracking, which was done in 3 mammoth sessions, where he sang for 10+ hours straight!), and he successfully maintained his own identity while integrating my “style.” What’s really interesting is the fact that “VOL” really pushed him to do things he never would’ve done otherwise – clearly some of the things I envisioned were outside of his comfort-zone as a singer, but he totally rose to the occasion and delivered a world-class performance throughout the entire album. In the future, we’ll certainly make more use of the soaring, melodic approach that he’s most known for, so in that respect, the best is clearly yet to come!

- You write all the music and the lyrics for While Heaven Wept. But had the other musicians any influence on the end result?

Certainly…when we’re first rehearsing new material, we collectively decide upon the number of repetitions that “feel” right, determine the most effective accentuations, experiment with different rhythmic and harmonic ideas, etc. While for “VOL” I even wrote the basic drum parts, the fact is each member interprets things differently, and a subtle change or transition could affect the entirety of a composition. I’ve always encouraged the rest of the band to bring things to the table, it’s just that they all have their own bands for whom they write, and they’re never 100% sure where I’m coming from initially either (with regards to my vision of an album), because WHW is constantly evolving – there’s never an urge to repeat something we’ve done in the past. There hasn’t been a “true” collaboration since the very first songs written back in 1989 – until recently that is; the next album will feature a song that Scott brought in a good amount of, that I helped him to complete, and also there’s a song that developed from a jam session between myself and members of the Greek epic metal band Battleroar. Perhaps one of the greatest aspects of WHW is the fact that there is still so much in the way of untapped potential, even after 20 years; every member of the band is a gifted songwriter in their own right, and I’m very excited that we’re close to “clearing out the archives” now, so that it’s a clean slate as far as composing new material is concerned.

- In Europe you have a loyal underground following. But how is your status in your home country? Is there a little scene in the US with cult festivals like the Keep-it-true and the Hammer of Doom festivals of Oliver Weinsheimer or the Doom Shall rise where you already played?

As far as I’m aware, WHW is virtually unknown in the US; we very rarely perform live here, none of our albums were released domestically, and we’ve never truly focused on anything other than Europe as far as promotions are concerned. All I can say is that I’ve always felt that there was a lot more in the way of cultural values and appreciation for art in Europe in general – while I certainly don’t hate the US, I am often appalled by the “fast food” societal aspects of it, and even more so by the shallow trend-following sheep herd mentalities here; until the Internet became a fixture, it seemed like people simply ate what they were fed, bought what they were sold, never questioned anything or looking any deeper. Perhaps this is changing in some capacity, because “hey, there’s an entire world out there” but I remain sceptical. That said, there has always been a strong underground contingent here, that we’re proud to be a part of, and yes, we’ve got some small cult festivals such as Born Too Late, Doom Or Be Doomed, Templars Of Doom to name a few we’ve participated in or are associated with. What I can say is that the convictions of a few are as strong as anywhere, but there’s a huge populace that remains ignorant at this time. We’re far more comfortable heading across the ocean to share the stage with our many friends over there!

- In February you will play in southern Germany (Würzburg) on the Hammer of Doom festival. But will there be some other occasions to see you live? Your passionate fans really wait for this!

Right now, Hammer Of Doom is our only scheduled commitment, but of course we’re discussing various offers for additional shows later in the year as well. The reality is that we have an exclusive agreement with Oli for Hammer Of Doom, so regardless of what options there are, we won’t be performing anywhere else around the time of the festival. It is however one of our highest priorities to spend a good amount of time there between 2010 and 2011 in support of “VOL!” Really, quite a bit is dependent upon various promoters and booking agencies, because we’re so deeply in debt after recording this album, pretty much the only way we can make our way over is if our expenses are covered in their entirety, so we’ll have to see what unfolds.

- Your first discs are already out of print. Will there be re-releases for your new fans?

I’m very aware of the growing demand for the re-releases, and frankly, this has been the case for quite some time…the first album “Sorrow Of The Angels” has been out-of-print since 1999, while “Of Empires Forlorn” more or less vanished with the demise of our label Rage Of Achilles about 5 years ago. While I certainly have very ambitious plans ultimately for both albums, an opportunity has just presented itself that we cannot pass up, and being that our audience is so adamant we offer these records again, I’ve decided to compromise for now and offer up limited editions of both in 2010, as part of our 20th Anniversary! But, keep in mind there will only be 1000 copies pressed of each, hand-numbered so anyone seeking these items should act swiftly – it won’t be until after the next new album “Fear Of Infinity” that we can even think about addressing the proper, unlimited editions I envision!

- Could you please give us a short outlook on the future of While Heaven Wept? Must we wait another six years for some new material or do you have something more in the making?

Apart from working on setting up tours and festival appearances in support of “VOL,” our highest priority is to get back in the studio as soon as possible to begin tracking the aforementioned “Fear Of Infinity” album, which is already complete compositionally; originally “VOL” was intended to be twice as long, but as “The Furthest Shore” developed into a side-long epic, I decided to shelve the other 8 songs we had been rehearsing so as to allow “Shore” a prominent place on “VOL” – “Fear Of Infinity” will be comprised of these songs that were set aside, plus the extremely epic single I mentioned towards the beginning of this interview. What I can say about this next album is that it is even more diverse and once again different from anything we’ve done before; it’s very much its own entity, but still retains all the characteristics that defined WHW past and present. Overall, it’s a darker album, perhaps less progressive, definitely more epic and aggressive for at least half of it, and clearly more doom for the other. As far as when you can expect it to be completed, your guess is as good as mine! We certainly don’t want to have another 5-6 year gap between albums, but the reality is that unless we sell enough copies of “VOL” and enough merch to cover the massive recording debt we’ve just incurred, it could take quite a long time to realize…and I’m not even sure if we can afford to record another album unless this transpires…thus, I plead to all of the downloaders out there – if you like the album, please buy a copy eventually, or at least a T-Shirt (or something)…unless some financial windfall comes out of nowhere, it’s almost entirely up to all of you out there to make the next album possible! (But of course, given my need for WHW, and my vow to always finish what I’ve started, it will eventually come to pass, even if it takes a decade or more…but let’s hope for a lot less time than in the past – the material and the band in general is ready to go!). Otherwise, I’d just like to thank everyone who has waited so patiently all this time for “Vast Oceans Lachrymose” – your support is priceless to us!

I thank you really much for this interview and wish you all the best personally and with your new album! I hope I can see you in Würzburg on Oli’s small festival!

Thank YOU very much Mario…I really appreciate this opportunity to discuss WHW and “VOL”…your support is extremely appreciated, and I do hope you’ll make it to Hammer Of Doom III! Cheers and take care!