Interview for Power Packer, June 2003
1. Tell us about the music that can be heard within Of Empires Forlorn.
Probably the most accurate way to describe the music on "Of Empires Forlorn" is that it is extremely melodic, symphonic and melancholic epic doom metal with strong progressive tendencies. It is a very unique sound that we have spent the last 14 years developing, and the music we play is distinctly While Heaven Wept. While we have absolutely no problem simply being referred to as an epic doom metal band, that isn't entirely representative of what we are. For musical references, "Of Empires Forlorn" sounds like a hybrid of Candlemass, Viking-era Bathory, early Fates Warning, pre-AOR Styx, J.S. Bach, and Klaus Schulze!
2. The new album sees a new line-up for the band. Tell us about the members that helped you record the music. Did they have any collaboration with you in the writing of the music?
Just like most of the line-ups since 1992 onward, While Heaven Wept 2003 is comprised of members of several other reasonably well-known underground entities, thus creating something of a "supergroup." The line-up that recorded the "Empires" album with me is largely comprised of the 1999 performing line-up, which featured Jim Hunter (Revelation, Twisted Tower Dire, October 31, Solstice, ex-Doomstone) on bass, and Scott Loose (Brave, formerly Arise From Thorns) on guitar, and his sister Michelle Loose on keyboards (also of Brave/AFT…she appears on V.2 of the "Empires" album, which will be released in an unlimited capacity on the Rage Of Achilles label in September). The newcomers were drummer Jason Gray (ex-Forty Days Longing) and keyboardist Jake Bodnar (Overdose), but the latter did not complete the recording with us in the end. Because of everyone's involvement with other bands, they generally did not contribute on a compositional level, and since the very beginning I've always been the sole songwriter for While Heaven Wept by default; it's not that everyone isn't encouraged to contribute in that capacity, it's just that they haven't. On the other hand, they've all contributed to the final arrangements of the material, especially Jim Hunter, who has become my right hand man - the two of us developed every last nuance that was incorporated into the final recording. The rest of the band also offered up arrangement ideas during the preparations for the recording sessions, and we did at least try out every suggestion…some of which worked, some did not make the final cut.
3. The band has had many line-up changes. Do you consider While Heaven Wept a band per se, or do you see the band as a continuous project of yours?
It's fairly common for people to perceive While Heaven Wept as my personal project, and it is probably true that it wouldn't be the same without me, but the truth is we are more of a united and democratic entity than ever before. Like I said, the various members do contribute to the final arrangements musically, but in addition to that everyone invests themselves in some other capacity as well; for example, everyone involved with the band does their share of networking and promotion, Jason does most of our in-house photography, Jim handles a lot of our graphic design (including constructing and maintaining our website), and Scott? Well, he'll be paying for the next album by himself (laughing). There is definitely more of a core line-up at this point in time, and we all assume some degree of responsibility for the forward progression of While Heaven Wept. But, getting back to the crux of the original question, would the current members carry on as WHW without me? Probably not, considering I own the name and all of the material.
4. Favorite song(s) from the album, and why? My favorite was the very emotional sounding 'Soulsadness' with the great ending to the song.
Man, it's virtually impossible to choose any one particular track, as they are all so different from each other, and equally important to the successful flow of the album. What I can say is that collectively, the band felt as if "Soulsadness" were indeed the most successful in terms of production and performance after the initial mixdown and mastering. Since then, we've returned to the studio to finish off some bonus material for the unlimited pressing of the album, and "In Aeternum" is definitely another shared favorite.
5. All the songs have a date next to them within the album booklet. I'm assuming this date signifies when the song was written and/or arranged?
Yes the dates refer to when the songs were initially conceived and subsequently revised. I've always included this information on every While Heaven Wept album for the purpose of historical documentation.
6. On the back of the album booklet, you give a no thanks whatsoever to the ignorant bastards who suggested the genre of Epic Doom Metal is played out… Care to elaborate on this?
Well that particular statement was directed towards a couple of individuals that wrote off WHW and our whole genre of music as stale and "done a thousand time before," which couldn't be further from the truth; there have only ever been 6 true epic doom metal bands in the world, and I am a member of two of them (although there are a couple new bands just barely at the demo stage who would also fit into this category). This was coming from people involved with labels whose claims to fame were releasing sub-par 3rd and 4th generation Peaceville and Head Not Found clones (bands emulating early Paradise Lost, The 3rd & The Mortal, etc. but falling way short of that caliber), of which there are literally hundreds if not thousands. I was really astounded by the overwhelming ignorance and condescendence of these individuals…such uninformed and apathetic responses are exactly what has kept hundreds of my colleagues from getting enough support to survive wave after wave of the trends perpetuated by these money-hungry bastards that don't even give a fuck about the sincerity or quality of the music they are pimping. I am sick of consumers, including myself, being fed a steady diet of cookie-cutter bands bereft of heart, soul, and originality by these greedy, corporate assdaggers, and someday they will pay for it in bankruptcy or blood I assure you.
7. I also noticed that when Scott Loose thanks you, he quotes after your name "fuck all this hippy shit, it's time for some real doom". This referring to today's stoner rock scene that tries to come off sounding doom as well?
Actually, Scott misquoted something I'd said at the first Stoner Hands Of Doom festival; what I actually said was "If you are here for some fucking hippy bullshit, then you might as well fuck off right now, because this is doom fucking metal." Of course, most of the audience did just that! But what a lot of people don't realize is the circumstances we were being forced to deal with…sitting through hours of lame bands playing the same Kyuss riffs over and over, Spirit Caravan tactlessly playing a ridiculously long set in the middle of a festival with no stage manager around to intervene, being told we have to start sharing equipment, and having our set cut short, not even being given the chance to tune our instruments - after I'd spent months helping to promote this event with my own time and money? With fans of ours from all over the world in attendance? Admittedly, I lost my cool, but goddamn that was the most frustrating experience I've ever endured - we were being treated like shit, and clearly were getting fucked. We played two songs and walked off stage in disgust. Weeks later, I came to find out the stage manager got drunk and had pissed off, and that is how things started spiraling out of control. Anyway, a lot of people in the stoner rock community thought I was an asshole after that, but you know, I am one of the nicest, most tolerant guys in the scene…I just got pushed around far too much that day. Just because I dislike stoner rock, doesn't mean I have a problem with the people in the bands or their fans personally. I do have a problem with the media and labels lumping stoner rock and doom into the same category because I believe that is extremely misleading, and I'll get back to this issue in a couple questions.
8. What do you think about today's goth metal scene?
Cameron, you are really trying to make this a controversial interview aren't you (laughing)? To be completely blunt, I find these "vampire-types" to be extremely gay and the furthest thing from metal they could be (besides nu-metal and hiphop-metal). I mean, are they really any different than the cock rock bands of the mid-80's ? That' wasn't metal either. "I'm so dark and eerie, I'm a ghost, I drink blood"…you know what? Fuck you…you're stealing mommy's make-up, wearing pleather, and trying to be "controversial" with your androgynous tendencies…you are just clowns! Go join the circus! Their music isn't heavy or dark at all; it is cheesy carnival and disco music performed by people in frilly shirts that sip wine, whilst listening to Opeth and reading Anne Rice. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy a lot of the isolationist darkwave released by labels like Eibon and Cold Meat Industry, some of the early goth bands like The Cure, and I can even appreciate the ambitious orchestrations of bands like Lacrimosa, but the vast majority of these goth/metal hybrids music is just wimpy and false, and nothing more than something for pre-pubescents with identity problems to use in rebellion against their parents and teachers.
9. What would your definition of a "true" doom band be… the sounds and the attitude?
I've always defined doom as mood. True doom is dark, ominous, depressing, slow, heavy music with soul and heart, epitomized by the opening strains of Black Sabbath's namesake, and the mellotron elegies of early King Crimson. There is nothing contrived about true doom - it is heartfelt music that is not motivated by fame or profit, only the need for personal expression. Stoner rock and slow death metal have nothing to do with doom - you are not going to get the same feeling listening to Fu Manchu or Obituary. Unfortunately, the media and labels have perpetually confused the masses by putting bands from those genres under the doom umbrella, which is something that my brethren and I have combated at every opportunity for the last 14 years.
10. Who do you think are the all-time purveyors of doom, besides the obvious BLACK SABBATH that many link this to?
Well, if you are referring to the founding fathers of doom, besides Black Sabbath, there is Pentagram, Saint Vitus, Trouble, Witchfinder General, Pagan Altar, Requiem, Paul Chain/Death SS, Desolation Angels, and Candlemass. There are however plenty of long-running and brand new bands that should be considered as masters of the genre: Penance, Revelation, Solitude Aeternus, Count Raven, Solstice, Dawn Of Winter, referring to the former, and the latter: Thunderstorm, The Doomsday Cult, Orodruin, Doomshine, and Pale Divine, just to name a few.
11. When I first heard 'Epistle No. 81', the song sounded so much like a song I had heard before and damn if it didn't sound exactly like a band I knew. Why no credit to CANDLEMASS who originally wrote the song? (I think… I've heard something about this song being re-arranged by CANDLEMASS.) Trying to see how many people would listen and think it was a While Heaven Wept song? (If so, nice touch!)
"Epistle No.81" is a traditional Swedish hymn penned by Carl Michael Bellman, who is their equivalent to Shakespeare. Hundreds of artists (mostly Swedish) have recorded renditions of this piece over the years including Februari 13, and Candlemass, who included it on their "Ancient Dreams" album. While our version is based upon Leif Edling's arrangement, it is still not a Candlemass song proper. In the credits of the Eibon pressing of "Of Empires Forlorn" we neglected to credit Carl Michael Bellman properly, however this will be rectified on the forthcoming Rage Of Achilles edition, which will be released this September. There's no doubt that I wanted to do a Candlemass cover, since they were one of the reasons I formed this band in 1989, but I elected to choose something less obvious than "Solitude" or "Samarithan." Our version of this Swedish national hymn was done with the utmost respect I assure you.
12. The guitars were played and recorded with a Gibson, except for two solos where you state that a Fender Stratocaster was required. I'm assuming the sound you got from the Fender Stratocaster was the reasoning behind this requirement?
Absolutely - a Strat has a very specific tone that cannot be created with any other guitar, no matter how highly effected. What I was going for was that overtly lyrical, legato sound popularized by the likes of Neal Schon, Uli Jon Roth, and Ritchie Blackmore, and you can hear this on the solos of "Epistle No.81," and "Voice In The Wind." But, as far as rhythm, no guitar is going to have a tone as heavy as the Gibson SG, which is part of the signature sound of While Heaven Wept.
13. About the keyboard ending to 'From Empires To Oceans' - any reasoning for the longevity of this? Or for that matter, any reasoning on ending the album with it?
Essentially, "From Empires To Oceans" is the entire first two-thirds of the title track of the album, with all the instrumental lines arranged for strings, and performed without vocals. The concept here was to strip away all the other layers of the song, and demonstrate the subtle melodic shifts of the composition, which was very much inspired by the minimalistic style of the Estonian composer Arvo Part. Just like some of the compositions from our earlier releases, the length and simplicity is analogous to the monotony of depression. The adept listener will recognize the closing theme as a foreshadowing of things to come, but considering this is only the bonus track on the limited edition of the album, not everyone will have the chance to hear this piece.
14. Of Empires Forlorn has been released on the European Eibon Records label. Were there no American labels interested in releasing the album? If so, why do you think this is the case?
We've never actively pursued an American deal, and have seldom even bothered to promote our music in the States, primarily because we are well aware of the generally apathetic response to doom from the labels and media here. Europe embraced us from our first release in 1994, and has always been supportive of doom metal in general. Over here, there are relatively few people who have any idea as to who While Heaven Wept is, but in Europe we're gradually becoming a household name, particularly in Germany (where our 2LP Anthology "Chapter One: 1989-1999" was released in 2002). I've spent the majority of our existence focusing on Europe exclusively, and "Of Empires Forlorn" will be the first release in 14 years that we've even bothered to send promos to American publications. We've been involved with Eibon Records since they were established, and to describe the nature of my relationship with label owner Mauro Berchi, it is strictly a partnership between brothers. Mauro only releases music he believes in and enjoys personally, which I appreciate greatly; he is not motivated by profit or trends whatsoever, and would rather invest a lot more money into the packaging of each release than the promotion of it. Neither he nor I want our releases to be in the hands of every kid with a Cradle Of Filth shirt. For this album, since it is the first that I feel is truly representative of what WHW is, and clearly defines our own signature sound, we did opt to license it to a larger entity for release in an unlimited capacity. While there were a lot of fans at American labels, the fact of the matter is because of our relatively obscure nature, they would have only offered us the same bottom of the barrel deal they give to brand new bands, which is unacceptable for a well-established band of 14 years, and they even admitted that to me. So when all is said and done, I struck up a licensing deal with Rage Of Achilles Records in the UK for the unlimited release of "Empires" in the standard jewel box, for the European and North American territories, and this version will be coming out as I said, in September 2003.
15. Have you musically accomplished everything you wanted to accomplish when first beginning While Heaven Wept?
"Of Empires Forlorn" is the first time I've ever been satisfied with the outcome of a recording, and it truly is the realization of everything I set out to do when I first started this band. Having said that, I feel like we've always been successful in performing music of extremely brutal honesty, for no other reason than the necessity of expression - it's just that this time around we managed to capture the all the tones and nuances on a recording. We've always had this wall of sound, but the dense arrangements of "Empires" are much more mature than anything we've done before, and I can honestly say that this is they way I always intended it to be.